topic Re: Lack of support from Plusnet in Plusnet Feedback

Lack of support from Plusnet

jackoab — Tue, 27 Jan 2009 23:32:10 GMT

I never imagined I would feel it necessary to write in this Forum but my experience with Plusnet today was unbelievable.
Over the last 3 months I’ve had several periods when my line has started dropping every few minutes they last for about 3 days and then correct automatically. I have ruled out my equipment by changing everything including the faceplate of my master socket, tried 3 routers, 3 phones and several filters.
I was told by Plusnet that they would arrange a visit from a BT engineer as it’s obvious there is a problem as when the line is stable it runs at 6dB SRN Margin and IP Profile of 7000 kbps, the last time it was stable for a period of 30 days according to my router but Plusnet say that during this period it dropped once.
Today I had a phone call from Plusnet to tell me that BT had corrected the fault by switching on interleaving and raising my SRN Margin to 15dB, as interleaving has never been switched off and my SRN Margin had been on 15dB since Sunday when the line had stabilised again my only conclusion can be that BT are just not telling the truth, when I explained this to Plusnet I was told that if they sent out an engineer and there was no problem I would be charged for the call-out. I’ve now been told to leave the question open and see what happens.
What annoys me most with this situation that Plusnet know the history of this intermittent problem but in my opinion they are taking the side of BT when in my opinion the should be supporting me, instead I’m left with a line running at half it’s normal speed as my SRN Margin has not been reset.
I realise this problem is caused by BT but the lack of support from Plusnet amazes me, I can’t see why they can’t tell BT the history and insist an engineer examines the line from the pole to my flat as I’m sure this is where the fault lies, Jack.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

Oleo — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 08:42:46 GMT

I've had the same in the past with a different ISP. I had an Open Reach engineer out to my house who admitted that he new little of broadband. He wouldn't even go to the exchange, just plugged his computer into my test socket, ran the same bt speed check trhat we all do, said it was fine and offski he went.
I did two things to get an engineer to check the exchange.
1. I reported a voice fault to 151 (don't mention broadband whatever you do)
2. I migrated out and then back in.
The outcome WAS an equipment fault at the exchange.
I'm not siding with anyone, but I know first hand the difficulty in dealing with Open Reach and BT Wholesale. What really give me, and I guess most people the hump, is that threat of a huge bill if an engineer cant find a fault. What do you do if its a faulty engineer.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

bobpullen — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:01:59 GMT

@jac2285, sorry to hear you're having problems. I'm not 100% clear from your post what the main cause for your dissatisfaction is though? Is it the increased SNR/reduced throughput or the reluctance to get an engineer out to you?
We could request the SNR is lowered but if it's noise fluctuations on your line causing the disconnections then chances are it will just raise again. It's difficult to convince BT that there's a genuine issue with your line if it runs perfectly but just at a higher target SNR/reduced sync speed.
Regarding the engineer visit, we're only relaying the facts to you. If we did send an engineer out, they charged a callut fee and we hadn't pre-warned you about it then I can't imagine you'd be all too happy. I notice your SNR jumped from 6db-15db, I'm wondering if there'd be any value in requesting it's set to an intermediate value like 9db?

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

James — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:06:48 GMT

Hi Jack,
I'm inclined to go along with what Bob's said really.
If BT have fixed your intermittency by increasing your target noise margin, then ultimately they have fixed your fault. If you want BT to investigate why you're unable to hold onto a 6dB noise margin then I suspect you'll have a lot of difficulty as BT will not see that as a fault, but there's some slightly increased noise conditions on your telephone line.
You're more than welcome to source your own router which is compatible with the DMT tool and manually force the SNR to 6dB yourself, but it's very unlikely that we would be able to get BT to fix your line in the way you want them to.
Ultimately, we can get a BT engineer out, but a call out charge is probably quite likely.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

jelv — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 09:07:26 GMT

Quote from: jac2285
Over the last 3 months I’ve had several periods when my line has started dropping every few minutes they last for about 3 days and then correct automatically.

Do the periods when it disconnects correspond to periods of wet or windy weather?
When it is bad is there any noise on the line when you use the phone? If you dial 17070 and take the quite line test (option 2) you should hear nothing. If there is noise on the line you should report this as a normal voice line fault (and don't mention ADSL).

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

jackoab — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:43:02 GMT

Hi Bob, Thanks for your interest. My basic complaint is that I know and Plusnet know that there is an intermittent fault on my line, when it occurs it doesn't matter what the SNR is the line drops continually, this will last for around 2-3 days and go back to normal. Normally with my SNR Margin set to 6dB my line is very stable and never drops, I have done everything possible to find a solution at my end but nothing I have tried works.
BTs comment that on Monday they increased the SNR Margin to 15 dB and added interleaving is laughable, my SNR Margin jumped to 15 on Saturday and interleaving has been on from when I first had Broadband, what annoys me is that Plusnet just accept this statement although they know it's untrue. The second point is you mention that you can request that my SNR Margin be reset but when I raise a question about getting it reset I'm told you don't have the facility to do this and I have to get stroppy before it happens. You suggest setting it at 9dB but as mentioned earlier at 6dB it is normally stable. In my telephone conversation with your agent I was again told that I would have to wait for it to reset automatically (which it has never done in the past). If the disruption ended when the line stabilised It would not be so bad but the hassle every time to get my SNR reset is driving me crazy
This then are my reasons for being upset with Plusnet, if you have any comments please make them, regards, Jack.
Hi James, I think this answers you as well, regards, Jack.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

James — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:46:03 GMT

Hi Jack,
It's possible that your interleaving was set to "auto" previously, whereas it's now been changed to "on" which would probably give a greater interleaving depth than you had before.
Ultimately, if your connection is still dropping after your update on Monday, let us know! We'll get back in touch with BT and get them to fix your fault. If they ask us to retest, that's all we can do until we can prove that their changes have made no difference.
I promiose we're on the same side as you

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

jackoab — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:13:48 GMT

Hi James, The problem is my line hasn't dropped since Sunday evening as usual the problem lasted for around 48 hrs. during this time it was dropping every few minutes which is why my SRN Margin rise so quickly (wish it would drop as quickly!). My belief is that the problem is somewhere between the top of the pole and my flat, the problem is that after I report the problem to you and you contact BT and they respond it will have corrected itself and left me with a SRN Margin of 15dB which I then have to hassle Plusnet to get reset, it is not a gentle increase my SRN Margin will rise from 6 to 15 in 10 minutes and then stay there until you request a reset from BT, it does not reset automatically!, regards, Jack.
Just to clarify my router has always shown interleaving to be on not auto. Jack.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

jelv — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:34:06 GMT

Quote from: jac2285
The problem is my line hasn't dropped since Sunday evening

What was the weather like Saturday/Sunday morning?

Quote from: jelv
Do the periods when it disconnects correspond to periods of wet or windy weather?

You didn't answer this. If you can identify the pattern as to why it goes bad you will be a huge leap forward to getting it fixed.
That you have said the line comes from a pole makes it being weather related a distinct possibility.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

Oldjim — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 12:37:30 GMT

From my experience it will only drop automatically if there are low error rates on the line. This doesn't necessarily mean frequent resync's
With your router is it possible to monitor the noise margin and error rates over time.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

jackoab — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:25:02 GMT

Hi Jelv, My apologies for not replying earlier thr weather the last two weekends when I've had this problem has been OK although on both occasions there has been some rain but not a lot. The reason I mentioned the pole is that 5-6 years ago pre B/B a had a fault on my phone line and they had to get a cherrypicker to reach the top of the building where the fault was, as the wiring through the building is yonks old and even at that time the engineers couldn't find how it came to my flat from the top of the building 3 floors below, all I know is it goes through the flat next door and then disappears.
Thanks for your interest, regards, Jack.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

jackoab — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:29:58 GMT

Hi Old Jim, yes I have a Voyager 2110 which registers errors and SNR but umtil the line starts to drop it shows very few errors, regards, Jack.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

Oldjim — Wed, 28 Jan 2009 13:41:03 GMT

If you can install RouterStats this will let you graph the errors over time and may give a better picture.
However going back to your original complaint I have found that the automatic systems don't seem happy to just increase the default noise margin by 3dB or 6dB but bounce it straight up to 15dB.
Have you tried asking Plusnet to drop the default noise margin to 12dB and if that holds with no problems then try 9dB.
Alternatively take the more expensive route (as I did) buy a new router such as the Netgear DG834G v4 which supports the use of DMT and Routerstats to drop the default noise margin.
With this you can play about with the noise margin yourself to the extent that you can drop the default margin to 9dB from a BT set 15dB

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

jackoab — Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:11:42 GMT

Hi Old Jim, First sorry for the delay in replying, the SRN Margin did increase in 3dB steps as I was watching very closely to see what was happening, my line normally at 6dB will run for weeks at a time without dropping as both Plusnet and BT know it is only when this problem arises that it goes haywire for 2-3 days at a time, what annoys me is the time it takes to get my SNR Margin reset, at the moment my line has been stable since Sunday evening and still my SNR Margin is at 15dB. As both Plusnet and BT can see this why can't it be reset?, do they think that at less than 1K. from the exchange an IP Profile of 4000kbps is normal? Why won't Plusnet challenge BT when they make false statements about adjusting my SRN Margin and applying interleaving? these are the thing that annoy me, regards, Jack.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

Anotherone — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 00:38:44 GMT

Totally agree with you jac2285. You clearly have some sort of intermittent problem, which would seem to have a pattern, but one which can't be defined as yet. As you say

Quote
........ do they think that at less than 1K. from the exchange an IP Profile of 4000kbps is normal? Why won't Plusnet challenge BT.........

well of course it isn't normal, or acceptable.
What I also find totally galling is that in this situation

Quote
.................. that I know and Plusnet know that there is an intermittent fault on my line, when it occurs it doesn't matter what the SNR is the line drops continually, this will last for around 2-3 days and go back to normal. Normally with my SNR Margin set to 6dB my line is very stable and never drops, I have done everything possible to find a solution at my end but nothing I have tried works.

that BT or PlusNet think setting a 15dB target for an intermittent fault is an acceptable solution. It is NOT, especially when you have tried 3 different routers, filters, phones and etc.
There should be no argument about resetting the SNRM target, certainly to 9dB if not 6dB.
If it is not an intermittent line fault somewhere it is intermittent REIN, but not so random, but what's the cause, is there any evidence to point one in a particular direction, and how long has this been an open fault (as opposed to being a problem).
Whilst there MAY be a case from the BT side that there is not YET sufficient evidence to justify any further action, there is clearly an area of suspicion

Quote
.................. that 5-6 years ago pre B/B a had a fault on my phone line and they had to get a cherrypicker to reach the top of the building where the fault was, as the wiring through the building is yonks old and even at that time the engineers couldn't find how it came to my flat from the top of the building 3 floors below, all I know is it goes through the flat next door and then disappears.

Apart from using RouterStats or whatever to graph the errors with time, I'd be asking what went on in the flat next door or anywhere on route from there to the top of the building, that doesn't go on all the time and that may be a source of electrical interference or physical disturbance of the line. Is the standard of cable to spec.CW1308? etc. Who has the 'legal' responsibilty for the cable from the top of the building to each flat?
In the interim, the target SNRM should reset without delay, IMVHO.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

VileReynard — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 01:01:10 GMT

If you increase the noise margin sufficiently you can "fix" virtually any problem.
Might be a mite bit slow, though.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

jackoab — Sat, 31 Jan 2009 23:13:26 GMT

'@anotherone, thanks for your reply, the cabling through the property is the responsability of BT, if it wasn't I would get it rewired myself, what I find annoying is that Plusnet seem unwilling to question any decision by BT, they stated that they increased the SRN Margin and swiched on interleaving on Monday, the SRN Margin had risen to 15dB on Saturday and interleaving has never been off since I had Broadband installed.
Today I got an answer to my ongoing questiom asking what I was unhappy about as my line and speed are stable!!, unfortunately there are no cable providers in my area and I can't see any sense in going to another ISP although I've heard good reports about UK Online who I believe give you the option to set your own SRN Margin, I really feel that Plusnet should be doing more on this case,Jack.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

jackoab — Sun, 01 Feb 2009 16:17:43 GMT

This is the latest answer to my question,

Dear Mr Charles,
Before we action this request, please reply with the following comments displayed below
+++
I request to have my SNR lowered to 6dB. However, should the SNR increase after this point due to line conditions, I accept that I will not be able to request this again.
+++
Kind regards
My response will I'm sure not meet with thier approval so I think it's time to look else.
How they can ask me to agree to accept responsability for a know fault line is beyond belief, I have tried every way I can to assist in the tracing of this fault and I get told it's my responsability.
I have already spoken to another Provider who have their own equipment in the exchange and although more expensive they sound a lot more willing to assist in sorting out this problem, Jack.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

jackoab — Mon, 02 Feb 2009 23:31:04 GMT

Would someone with a superior knowledge of ADSL to me please look at these Stats from my router and give an opinionplease,
Line Mode G.DMT Line State Show Time
Latency Type Interleave Line Up Time 06:15:03:11
Line Coding Trellis On Line Up Count 1

Statistics Downstream Upstream
Line Rate 5088 Kbps 448 Kbps
Noise Margin 14.8 dB 21.0 dB
Line Attenuation 36.0 dB 19.5 dB
Output Power 19.8 dBm 12.1 dBm
K (number of bytes in DMT frame) 160 15
R (number of check bytes in RS code word) 12 4
S (RS code word size in DMT frame) 1 4
D (interleaver depth) 32 8
Super Frames 33681987 33681985
Super Frame Errors 80 6
RS Words 2290375158 572593745
RS Correctable Errors 18700 38
RS Uncorrectable Errors 1081 0
HEC Errors 71 0
OCD Errors 0 0
LCD Errors 0 0
ES Errors 0 0

Thanks in anticipation, Jack.

Re: Lack of support from Plusnet

VileReynard — Tue, 03 Feb 2009 00:06:47 GMT

I can't claim to have superior knowledge to you,
but since you have a very stable line (with very few errors) on a 15dB noise margin,
Why not ask for an intermediate reduction to 9dB - which should give you a considerable increase in sync speed.
After several days your BRAS profile will increase to suit.
You can always ask for a 6dB margin at a later date...
Is your modem supported by DMT - it's a tool whereby you can make modest increases/decreases on your own noise margin.