topic Re: IPv6 Petition in IPv6 Trial

IPv6 Petition

ashleysprigg — Sun, 12 Jun 2016 19:30:39 GMT

HI, heres something for you all just to test the water.

Sign the petition below to show plusnet how important IPv6 is or to at least get a responce to when IPv6 is coming.

So to stop me looking stupid, lets try and get more than 3 people to sign it lol.

Sign at the below website guys.

http://www.ipetitions.com/petition/plusnet-native-ipv6-for-all-customers

Re: IPv6 Petition

w23 — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:00:42 GMT

Not sure this will speed them up but it may let them know how many (or few (I hope not)) want this 'step into the current century' from our ISP.

Re: IPv6 Petition

SimonHobson — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:34:13 GMT

Well only 6 sigs at the moment, so not looking very good

Re: IPv6 Petition

Anonymous — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:42:51 GMT

@SimonHobson - Not the end of the world, chances are most users will be at work and not be able to respond, so make sure you keep the thread active so it's noticed.

Re: IPv6 Petition

30FTTC06 — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 11:58:12 GMT

Tick.

Re: IPv6 Petition

w23 — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 15:03:26 GMT

Bumping not permitted

Re: IPv6 Petition

SimonHobson — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 16:21:20 GMT

I'll not bump it then

Re: IPv6 Petition

Strat — Mon, 13 Jun 2016 19:13:34 GMT

I wouldn't advise it

Re: IPv6 Petition

Anonymous — Tue, 14 Jun 2016 15:46:13 GMT

Who is it that keeps bumping this thread?

Re: IPv6 Petition

SimonHobson — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 07:13:13 GMT

Not me

Re: IPv6 Petition

gleneagles — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:31:24 GMT

Must confess I know little about this topic but from what I have read on the internet it's introduction would be of benefit to both users and the IPS and at some stage they will have to introduce it anyway due to running out of addresses on the current system so why do they not get on with it ? Is it due to additional costs or other problems ?

Re: IPv6 Petition

brueton — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:36:46 GMT

I would guess that there are other priorities e.g. The new network.

I mentioned IPv6 to a friend who uses her computer every day and her reply was:

1) What is IPv6?

2) Do I need it?

Re: IPv6 Petition

SimonHobson — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:39:05 GMT

Yes, it's one of those things that's coming whether anyone likes it or not. ISPs that don't yet have a plan should look at how it worked out for the various online services (like AOL) that tried to resist the tide of "the internet" and keep their walled garden systems. Hint, none of them survived as walled garden systems when everyone else went to the internet.

As to why they appear to be dragging their feet ? Well only PlusNet manglement can answer that one. I can only assume that at the high levels it's not getting the focus it deserves. Meaning, that sufficient funds etc haven't been put into the areas needed to make it work. And there is a lot needed to make it all work - providing the addresses and routing them is the relatively easy bit. They need to manage it all, and upgrade the management systems (and customer portal) to support it, and a host of stuff.

It's the sort of stuff that's "easy" at the home/office level (I've done it) - it's not so trivial when you scale it to ISP level

Re: IPv6 Petition

SimonHobson — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:44:15 GMT

@brueton wrote:

1) What is IPv6?

To which the answer is: You don't need to know - in much the same way that you don't need to know what a spark plug is to be able to use a car. If you like to know "how stuff works" then it's quite interesting, but as an end user you can just let it be an SEP* to make it happen.

2) Do I need it?

And similarly, the answer is: Yes. Not "right now this minute", but over time you'll come across stuff that "doesn't work" if you don't have it.

* SEP = Someone Else's Problem

Re: IPv6 Petition

SimonHobson — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 13:56:27 GMT

Perhaps a better analogy might be that in order to get from A to B by train, you don't need to know anything about* (takes deep breath) :

Railway track design, railway signalling design and operation, railway power supply design & operation, traction systems, braking systems, communication systems, scheduling (timetabling) systems, ticketing system design, inter-company accounting practices, etc, etc, etc.

You just need to know that other people have taken care of all these things - so you can buy a ticket, get on the train when it arrives at A and get off it when it arrives at B.

Behind the scenes, if the network as a whole decides to upgrade the track-train signalling systems (as has happened a couple of times), and your local train operator decides not to upgrade it's rolling stock - then over time (as the changes come in and bit of the network are no longer accessible to trains without the new system), you'll find that when you want to travel to C, the train can't take you there.

But if all you want to do is travel between A and B (and back again), Mon-Fri, week in and week out - then it won't make any difference.

Of course, where this analogy breaks down is that to get to C you travel to B and change to another train that does go to C. Well there is a certain amount of that possible on the internet, but it's only a certain amount.

* For some of us, knowing about some of this is an end in itself. Here the analogy is that those of us who like playing with "the greasy bits" will be found in the forums here (and elsewhere) talking about the stuff that does make IPv6 work. To those who don't care - we might as well be conversing in Klingon

Re: IPv6 Petition

gleneagles — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:06:51 GMT

@SimonHobson

Well I am not to sure about your point that users do not need to know the in's and out's of it.

For example someone using windows 7 who is told to upgrade to windows 10 might think that is a good move to make because it must be better but numerous comments by users on various forums have felt it was not a good move for one reason or another.

It was also felt by some PN forum members that the changes made to this site were unnecessary and prefered the old site but I accept they had no choice in the matter.

I accept sooner are later the change will be made but for someone like me with no knowledge of the subject I simply need to know, will I notice anything when the change takes place and even more important could anything go wrong with the service I currently get during the switch from 4 to 6 ?

Re: IPv6 Petition

30FTTC06 — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 18:19:51 GMT

I thought the rumour was BT was going live by the end of 2016 ?

A&A Have it up and running very well by all accounts.... worth a look http://aa.net.uk/kb-broadband-ipv6-tech.html

Re: IPv6 Petition

SpendLessTime — Wed, 15 Jun 2016 19:13:09 GMT

Sky are moving its customers to IPv6 http://arstechnica.co.uk/information-technology/2016/01/sky-will-push-all-subscribers-onto-ipv6-network-by-summer-2016/

Note Sky are not just offering a choice but making customers use IPv6, full stop (where the customer's router supports it). BT Retail are giving customers the choice currently to use IPv4 or IPv6.

Re: IPv6 Petition

SimonHobson — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 07:18:53 GMT

For example someone using windows 7 who is told to upgrade to windows 10 might think that is a good move to make because it must be better but numerous comments by users on various forums have felt it was not a good move for one reason or another

....

... will I notice anything when the change takes place and even more important could anything go wrong with the service I currently get during the switch from 4 to 6 ?

Fair points, but ...

It's nothing like the switch to Windows 10. For one thing, IPv6 basically does exactly the same as IPv4 - but with more addresses. In a lot of ways it's a bit like when (going back a bit) BT decide they are running out of numbers at an exchange and add an extra digit. Unlike with the W10 "upgrade", they don't rip out the exchange and all the cabling, and rebuild the local phone system and make users buy newer phones that are compatible with the new system. But the users do need to dial an extra digit to get connected - but only for those numbers on that exchange that are affected. When calling aunt Doris at the other end of the country, there's no difference at all.

So given that for most users (at least for now) the only difference is the longer addresses, and they rarely have to deal with addresses anyway, there's no difference. You go to www.somewebsite.com and the page loads - near enough just the same as without IPv6. There may be a slight difference in speed, but that's all.

IPv6 does allow lots of other neat stuff, but for now, most users won't see that - stuff will "just work" the same as you're used to.

But everyone will need to add IPv6 sooner or later. In some areas IPv4 addresses have already run out, and there are some IPv6 only services starting to appear. You don't need to worry that (say) Google is going to stop serving IPv4 any time soon, and if you don't happen to access any of those IPv6 only services then you won't be affected, but sooner or later I think most people will come across something.

And again, in the background, stuff will "work better" - eg torrent like services will not have to deal with NAT and I think will work a bit more reliably over IPv6. Users won't notice much since the odd NAT related problem usually gets masked by there being other peers that fill the gap - but overall things will work a little better behind the scenes.

This is why I say that most users don't need to know about it. Just like you don't need to know if the next car has upped the (diesel) injection pressure - all you care about is that the new one drinks a little less fuel than the old one. Us petrol heads might care, but most owners and drivers have no reason to even know.

Now, can anything go wrong ? Well yes it can.

A few years ago there was a global IPv6 day when a number of big tech firms (Google was one) switched their defaults to IPv6 for the day. Google in particular was able to collect large stats on users and problems they may have had. At the time, there were numerous routing issues so most switched back to having IPv4 as the default. Now most of them use IPv6 by default, and I think most OSs/browsers default to using IPv6 first if available such has been the progress in resolving issues. But if your system appears to be IPv6 connected, but in reality it isn't, then what you'll see is a delay in opening connections - ie your webpage will pause before it loads. This is because your system will attempt an IPv6 connection first, and then fall back to IPv4 when the IPv6 connection fails. This can happen if (for example) your local router dishes out IPv6 addresses internally and fails to "take them back" if the IPv6 connectivity fails. Using native connectivity from your ISP, you are unlikely to have this issue - but it can happen for those of us using a speartae tunnel from a provider like Hurricane Electric's Tunnelbroker service.

Lastly, remember that this is NOT replacing IPv4 with IPv6. IPv4 is going to be around for a looooooong time yet simply because there is so much of it and so many users still without IPv6. Give it another decade or so and I suspect we'll start seeing stats on "how much IPv4 is still in use" with pushes to get people to stop using it. We will also sooner or later start seeing IPv6-only ISPs - but that'll be further down the line (and in the meantime, there'll be horrible things like carrier-grade NAT to fudge things along for a few more years).

Re: IPv6 Petition

MJN — Thu, 16 Jun 2016 09:07:53 GMT

@SimonHobson wrote:

Now most of them use IPv6 by default, and I think most OSs/browsers default to using IPv6 first if available such has been the progress in resolving issues. But if your system appears to be IPv6 connected, but in reality it isn't, then what you'll see is a delay in opening connections - ie your webpage will pause before it loads. This is because your system will attempt an IPv6 connection first, and then fall back to IPv4 when the IPv6 connection fails. This can happen if (for example) your local router dishes out IPv6 addresses internally and fails to "take them back" if the IPv6 connectivity fails. Using native connectivity from your ISP, you are unlikely to have this issue - but it can happen for those of us using a speartae tunnel from a provider like Hurricane Electric's Tunnelbroker service.

That issue should be largely mitigated now thanks to the advent of so-called 'Happy Eyeballs' implementations in most decent browsers that, when faced with both A and AAAA records for a target, sends off two near-simultaneous TCP connection requests. Whichever protocol (i.e. IPv4 or IPv6) gets a response first wins and the use of that protocol is then used for the remainder of the session. In the case of broken IPv6 stacks obviously only the IPv4 path is available and so IPv4 will win and the browser uses it without any delay.