topic Re: Huge BufferBloat issues. in Full Fibre

Huge BufferBloat issues.

IAmGeo — Tue, 16 Apr 2019 13:41:46 GMT

I moved into my new house early December, it is a brand new house and the infrastructure is also completely new and ever since then, I have had terrible service from Plusnet which is very disappointing considering I have been a customer for 7 years.

Playing any online games is almost impossible with these BufferBloat issues, latency up to 770ms in some situations.

Even playing on servers in London I see spikes of up to 300ms, my American friends get lower latency than I do on servers in London.

http://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/48623501

I have had BT/Openreach Engineers out, several chats with Plusnet support and nothing has been done to improve this, Plusnet support decided I had a faulty router and sent me out a new one, this didn't change anything at all.

I'm honestly at the point where I just want out of my contract, what were a wonderful 7 years where I even recommended to everyone to Plusnet who was looking for a new ISP, after my last 6 months of service I honestly don't think I'd ever recommend this service to anyone ever again. I'm on this forum now because this is my last hope, if I can't get the support here then it is clear Plusnet cannot and will not fix my issues.

edit:

All tests performed are on Desktops with 1GB Ethernet adapters.

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

IAmGeo — Tue, 16 Apr 2019 13:55:28 GMT

1. Product name:	Plusnet Hub
2. Serial number:	+081441+NQ********
3. Firmware version:	Software version 4.7.5.1.83.8.263 Last updated 21/03/19
4. Board version:	Plusnet Hub One
5. DSL uptime:	2 days, 19:40:07
6. Data rate:	8367 / 51774
7. Maximum data rate:	8376 / 53717
8. Noise margin:	5.9 / 3.5
9. Line attenuation:	36.3 / 22.9
10. Signal attenuation:	36.1 / 20.5
11. Data sent/received:	5.6 GB / 130.0 GB
12. Broadband username:	****@plusdsl.net
13. 2.4 GHz Wireless network/SSID:	GEO15FAR
14. 2.4 GHz Wireless connections:	Enabled (802.11 b/g/n (up to 144 Mb/s))
15. 2.4 GHz Wireless security:	WPA2
16. 2.4 GHz Wireless channel:	Automatic (Smart Wireless)
17. 5 GHz Wireless network/SSID:	GEO15FAR
18. 5 GHz Wireless connections:	Enabled (802.11 a/n/ac (up to 1300 Mb/s))
19. 5 GHz Wireless security:	WPA2
20. 5 GHz Wireless channel:	Automatic (Smart Wireless)
21. Firewall:	Default
22. MAC Address:	e8:ad:a6:ea:83:9a
23. Modulation:	G.993.2 Annex B
24. Software variant:	AA
25. Boot loader:	1.0.0

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

dvorak — Tue, 16 Apr 2019 13:59:58 GMT

Moderators Note

This topic has been moved from ADSL Broadband to Fibre

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

JOLO — Tue, 16 Apr 2019 15:06:36 GMT

@IAmGeo,

It's a difficult one to resolve because testing doesn't show anything that could be causing a problem, which is what the contacts to us and the engineers have also found.

Your firmware is the newest one available, and we've tried to eliminate the hardware as a cause by replacing it as you've noted.

Can I ask does the issue occur on a particular device (Gaming PC, Xbox One, PS4), is it a particular game you're having problems with, a particular gaming server (if so is it possible to confirm the gaming server you connect to).

Do you have any port forwarding set in your router for the game(s).

If it's a PC do you have anti-virus/firewall in place that could be causing a bottleneck.

Are you running any other devices at the same time, for example 4k streaming etc, that could cause lag spikes on the connection when gaming?

Unfortunately this isn't something our router enables you to do (most ISP routers offer limited functionality), but if you have a spare store bought router do you have the option to set up a quality of service offering, or Smart Queue to manage the traffic across your internal network and you router handling it.

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

IAmGeo — Tue, 16 Apr 2019 15:19:20 GMT

Can I ask does the issue occur on a particular device (Gaming PC, Xbox One, PS4), is it a particular game you're having problems with, a particular gaming server (if so is it possible to confirm the gaming server you connect to).

It's not limited to one particular device or game, if it was limited to a particular game then DSL reports wouldn't show these insanely high increases in latency.

Do you have any port forwarding set in your router for the game(s).

If it's a PC do you have anti-virus/firewall in place that could be causing a bottleneck.

Are you running any other devices at the same time, for example 4k streaming etc, that could cause lag spikes on the connection when gaming?

No port forwarding other than my Plex server for external access, UPnP is enabled since my network is primarily for gaming/streaming the ease of use vs security is a trade-off I am happy to accept using UPnP. I also experience the same results at early hours of the morning when every other device is turned off except my own PC because I hardly sleep lol.

Unfortunately this isn't something our router enables you to do (most ISP routers offer limited functionality), but if you have a spare store bought router do you have the option to set up a quality of service offering, or Smart Queue to manage the traffic across your internal network and you router handling it.

Unfortunately, I do not, though it's beginning to look like I will have to invest in a proper 3rd party router or start exploring pfsense or untangle "DIY" solutions that fix Bufferbloat - What I really don't understand though is using the same Plusnet supplied model of router at my previous address I did not have any bufferbloat issues, I didn't even move that far, I am still on the same exchange.

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

Beyhive — Tue, 16 Apr 2019 16:20:51 GMT

Hi @ IAmGeo

Could it be that the Plex server is affecting the latency as in some cases it would do.

I would try to

Disable UPnP in router settings
Disable DLNA in Plex settings

It could also be as simple as a recent Plex update that has changed things for you to affect your latency.

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

IAmGeo — Tue, 16 Apr 2019 22:55:32 GMT

That did occur to me, but I always disable plex and turn off that machine when I am doing any troubleshooting.

The latency spikes are persistent even when my machine which is purely for gaming only, is the only device on the network.

The only thing I have actually found that makes a small difference is Gigabyte LAN optimizer, putting my games in high priority mode definitely lowers latency, however, there are still spikes up to 300ms but they are less frequent by far.

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

RandallFlagg — Wed, 17 Apr 2019 09:35:28 GMT

Hi @IAmGeo

Thanks for the update.

I'll be honest, at this stage, we're limited in terms of what else we can suggest in terms of the infrastructure and equipment we provide. We've tested the line (fine) sent an engineer to test the line end to end (fine) and sent another router (same issue, unlikely to be two faulty routers). As much as I sympathise with the lag issues you're experiencing, I would say it's unlikely that the issue relates to our support remit.

That's not to say that we aren't willing to help, I just feel that the support we can provide (a further engineer for example) is unlikely to resolve the issue and I'm loathe to waste your time pursuing that avenue needlessly.

If you're already tried disabling UPnP in the router settings, I would perhaps throw this open to the wider community to ascertain whether something we're unaware of, or something that lies outside of our infrastructure could be causing the lag you describe.

Unfortunately, at this stage, we're only able to provide support on your physical connection to the exchange (and the infrastructure inbetween) and all testing we've done on that basis has come back with no fault found. I feel repeating that process will only yield the same results - but I'm happy to do so if you wish. Alternatively, our community may be able to provide an alternative resolution via this thread.

Best wishes

Dave

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

IAmGeo — Mon, 20 May 2019 21:29:58 GMT

I'm still having these same problems, it's completely ruined online gaming for me which I loved to spend my evenings doing.

I honestly don't even know what to do anymore, I'm stuck paying for this piece of [-Censored-] internet, I wish i could get out of it and just try a different ISP. I'm so so so so frustrated with this.

NIK is my American friend, he's over 4300 miles away and has the same ping as i do to a server hosted in London.

How can this even be acceptable?

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

EmilyD — Tue, 21 May 2019 08:15:40 GMT

Hi @IAmGeo,

I'm sorry that you're still experiencing problems with your connection and for the inconvenience caused. Testing your line is now picking up a fault, but it's unclear as to whether this lies internal or external to your property so we'll need to do some troubleshooting to try and get to the bottom of this:

GEA Test Detail
Circuit ID	NA	Service ID	BBEUXXXXXXXXX


Test Outcome	Fail
Test Outcome Code	GTC_FTTC_SERVICE_1613
Description	Potential HR Joint detected on GEA service. Please continue to submit a trouble report
Main Fault Location	CE
Sync Status	In Sync
Downstream Speed	33.3 Mbps
Upstream Speed	1.1 Mbps
Appointment Required	Y
Fault Report Advised	Y
NTE Power Status	PowerOn
Voice Line Test Result	Pass
Bridge Tap	Not Detected
Radio Frequency Ingress	Detected
Repetitive Electrical Impulse Noise	Not Detected
Cross Talk	Detected
Estimated Line Length In Metres	888.3
Upstream Rate Assessment	Very Good
Downstream Rate Assessment	Very Good
Interference Pattern	Not Detected
Service Impact	No Impact Observed
Home Wiring Problem	Not Detected
Downstream Policing Discard Rate	0.0
Customer Traffic Level	Upstream and Downstream Traffic Detected
Technology	VDSL
Profile Name	0.128M-80M Downstream 3dB, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Retransmission Low
Time Stamp	2019-05-08T09:15:00

Parameters	MIN	MAX	AVG
Down Stream Line Rate	31.8 Mbps	54.7 Mbps	47.8 Mbps
Up Stream Line Rate	1.1 Mbps	8.7 Mbps	6.6 Mbps
Up Time	801.0 Sec	900.0 Sec	899.4 Sec
Retrains	0.0	1.0	0.0

Current and Last 15 Minute Bin Performance
Parameters	Last Traffic Count(Upto 15 mins)	Current Traffic Count(Upto 15 mins)
Start Time Stamp	2019-05-21T07:56:38Z	2019-05-21T08:11:38Z
Ingress Code Violation	0	0
Egress Code Violation	0	0
Errored Seconds	0	0
Severely Errored Seconds	0	0
Unavailable Seconds	0	0

I'd recommend starting with basic checks here. If these checks don't resolve the problem, the next step would be to connect your router directly to the test socket, which is under the faceplate of your master socket and seeing if the connection stabilises This rules out internal wiring, face plates and extension sockets as being the cause. Please see the following guide for instructions on how to connect to the test socket. https://community.plus.net/t5/Library/Testing-From-The-Master-Socket/ba-p/1322242

Please let us know if the connection issue persists when connected to the test socket.

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

IAmGeo — Tue, 21 May 2019 14:17:43 GMT

Ok so I have moved my entire gaming PC setup down stairs along with the router and plugged it into the master socket test port.

This way I can continue using direct ethernet connections without the need for Wireless or A Powerline network

Later on this evening i will be able to test if there is any difference in latency and download and upload speeds.

I reccomend that you also rerun your tests later on in the evening when the problem is usually at it's utter worst.

I live in a new development area, houses are popping up faster than you can count, and the single node which resides roughly 800-900m away from me serves the entire area around me, which is roughly 500-750 houses. with many many more on the way, I have a strong feeling this node is over-crowded and is why the latency is so terrible in the evenings.

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

Jubby — Tue, 21 May 2019 15:09:17 GMT

Hi @IAmGeo,

Thank you for connecting to the test socket and for removing your power-line adapters from the equation.

Let us know how the performance tests go this evening and we can re-run the service test as soon as possible. I have checked the virtual path that your circuit is connected through, this report is generated every Monday. It is showing as green and not over utilised therefore, shouldn't be causing issues during peak times. By all means, once the fault is raised we can get in touch with our suppliers to confirm that usage isn't over threshold but looking at the report it doesn't suggest so.

Thanks again.

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

IAmGeo — Tue, 21 May 2019 15:35:13 GMT

Just to clarify, there was never any powerline adapters on my network to start with, i just happen to have some, but to avoid using them, i moved my entire setup downstairs to where the master-socket is. I will update this thread later this evening with the results of a few tests and games.

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

bill888 — Tue, 21 May 2019 16:54:24 GMT

fwiw, something else to consider is your downstream noise margin is very low at 3.5dB.

6. Data rate:

8367 / 51774

8. Noise margin:

5.9 / 3.5

Profile Name

0.128M-80M Downstream 3dB, Retransmission Low - 0.128M-20M Upstream, Retransmission Low

Check if it still floats around 3dB immediately after turning on the modem, or whether it is nearer normal 6dB. It could be your line perhaps can't work reliably on the new 3dB profile which DLM may have perhaps applied?

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

IAmGeo — Tue, 21 May 2019 18:48:32 GMT

When the open reach engineer came to my house early april (or late march, i can't remember anymore) he also stated that the noise marigin was set very low and called someone to have it raised from 3 to 6.

I'm not sure anymore if this was for the upstream or downstream.

Immediately after restarting the router this was the result:

8. Noise margin:

6.0 / 3.1

Every few minutes it will flucuate between 5.5-6.0 / 2.2-3.5

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

IAmGeo — Tue, 21 May 2019 18:58:36 GMT

Here's a test I just performed from DSLreports.
https://www.dslreports.com/speedtest/49939848

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

IAmGeo — Tue, 21 May 2019 23:16:33 GMT

Here's an update after 4 and a half hours of being connected to the test socket.

8. Noise margin:	5.9 / 3.7
9. Line attenuation:	35.9 / 22.7
10. Signal attenuation:	35.3 / 20.5

Still seeing ping spikes up to and over 150ms.
Tested 2x games
10 minute ping test to 8.8.8.8 had spikes between 110-150ms roughly every 10-15 seconds.

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

bill888 — Wed, 22 May 2019 01:16:45 GMT

he also stated that the noise margin was set very low and called someone to have it raised from 3 to 6.

I'm not sure anymore if this was for the upstream or downstream.

It will be for the downstream. If the noise margin had been raised to 6 dB, the maximum downstream data rate will have come down too. eg. to below 45 mbps approx

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

IAmGeo — Wed, 22 May 2019 01:21:03 GMT

So this is why my bandwidth came down from 45-50mbps to 35mbps?
This has been bugging me for ever, when i renewed my contract I specifically said i wanted to pay the extra for the 60mbps line, knowing that it was unlikely i would fully reach this but having the extra 10mbps (averaging 50mbps) was worth it for Gaming/Twitch streaming/Streaming - I'm a heavy user, my previous house had 80mpbs down and 20mpbs up so i was too used to that.

I'm not sure how i feel about this, I never really got told the reasoning behind this change, any idea why?

Re: Huge BufferBloat issues.

bill888 — Wed, 22 May 2019 01:45:25 GMT

The greater the noise margin, the lower the interference and the corresponding data rate.

Put simply, your current property is further away from the FTTC cabinet than your previous property. I think you estimated 800-900m. At that distance, I wouldn't expect more than 30-40 mbps on a 6dB noise margin imho.

If you use the BT DSL checker and enter your previous house number and postcode, you can see how it compares to what it reports for your telephone number at current property. Note these are estimates.

https://www.dslchecker.bt.com/

Other thoughts, have previous openreach engineer visits involved any rewiring or changing the port at the FTTC cabinet?

If the latency is fine during the daytime and only bad during peak time evenings (eg. 6pm to midnight), it could be a congestion problem?

Did you witness any latency issues when your max downstream speed was 35 mbps ?