topic Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another. in Full Fibre

Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

MVH_Somerset — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 16:14:37 GMT

Summary:
(See below for full story.)
Neither Openreach nor Plusnet can find a fault with the line from 'the internet' to the 3 routers we have tried. The 3 routers all show a downstream speed of 60Mbps. However, three different speed testing websites on my high spec ethernet-connected desktop PC give data download speeds starting around our rated max of 60Mbps very early in the day, but reducing to less than 1Mbps by evening. This without any other internal usage, ethernet or wifi.

I'm only a layman and don't understand all the technicalities, but surely this must be caused by a lack of capacity in Plusnet's system, as the more (external) traffic builds as the day goes on, the less speed. How can I get Plusnet to accept that this is the case; or else provide an alternative, credible, explanation - and solution?
And as someone shielding, if I do literally put my life at some risk, by allowing a second - and possibly third - Openreach engineer to enter our house, what good will that do, as they will most likely just confirm that the line is fine?
I can accept that if an engineer is unable to fix a line fault which is showing on either Plusnet's or Openreach's test systems, then maybe that engineer isn't 'good enough', and a second should be sent. But if neither system can see a fault, how can any engineer, however good, find a fault that doesn't exist?!

Details:
Since Wednesday our download speeds have been as low as 1Mbps in the evenings. During the middle part of the day they've been between 5 and 20. Using Ookla, our ping is almost always lower than 20ms, and upload is always around 18Mbps (our estimated max). Before this issue started our normal speeds were consistently close to our estimated max, of about 60.

(I was, at this point, using Ookla for these tests. As of today I'm using BT Wholesale and fast.com as well. Fast also shows ping of about 20, but BT Wholesale gives more like 90.) Our guaranteed rate is 40.

I contacted Plusnet on Wednesday evening and they tested our line remotely and could not find a fault. Their system showed our router was receiving a full 60Mbps. When I logged into the router it also showed me a downstream speed of 60Mbps.

The same Plusnet agent called me back again early Thursday morning and we again went through testing. This time, at his suggestion, I had swapped out our BT Home Hub 5 and replaced it with a new, unused Plusnet Hub One which I had been sent in July last year, when we had had similar problems. I plugged the Hub One directly into the test socket (via the new filter), and then connected a single desktop PC via ethernet. I didn't activate the Wifi, so the desktop was the only device in our house accessing the internet.

Again the Plusnet agent could detect no fault on the line, but the PC was showing very slow speeds.

Plusnet stated that the next step was to send an Openreach engineer. We very reluctantly agreed to this, as I have leukaemia, and so am very vulnerable to Covid. The engineer arrived early Friday morning and checked the line from the cabinet to where the cable arrives at our house. He found no faults. He then came inside the house and his testing equipment was also showing a line speed of 60. We tried the Hub One, my Home Hub 5, and even a spare BT router he had with him.

All 3 routers showed the 60Mbps line speed; but the PC continued to show speeds between 16 and 24 using Ookla. He upgraded the master socket from a Mk2 to a Mk 5 but not unexpectedly there was no improvement. He then went to the cabinet, where he swapped us to a different port. Apparently this improved our maximum speed to 70Mbps, but there was no improvement in actual speeds.
He rang Plusnet and asked if there was a cap on our connection. The Plusnet technician said there wasn't, but that we were on a static IP, which "might be affecting the situation". He changed us to a dynamic IP, but again - no improvement.

The Openreach engineer (who was *not* a trainee, but experienced), sat in his van making numerous calls to colleagues and even to a specialist in their London 'centre of excellence'. More than one of them apparently said that they had come across this situation before, and that the issue must be being caused by something in the Plusnet environment, as there was demonstrably no physical fault in our line. Our engineer said he would report back his findings in his job notes.

Late that afternoon (Xmas eve) a colleague of the Plusnet agent who had been dealing with me the day before called to say that the Openreach engineer's notes didn't make much sense.
She said that there *is* a cap on our line, but that it is at 60Mbps, so cannot be causing our very low speeds.
She said we would need a second Openreach visit. I again explained that I was very reluctant to have another person inside the house, and couldn't that be waived in the circumstances. Her superviser said no. We agreed to wait until Monday (tomorrow) evening before she would call me again, just in case the speeds improved.

I have carried out tests today using all 3 test websites. We are temporarily using our phones as 4g hotspots for accessing the internet, so the following figures are all through ethernet, to a single PC, with no other internal traffic.

At 0750: 55Mbps to 63Mbps
At 0840: 49
At 1025: 32 to 14
At 1210: 7 to 13
At 1500: I can't get the BT site to run the test, and Fast.com gives 8

At 1605: 8 to 16 (Fast.com screenshot and BT wholesale pdf attached.)

I predict that by this evening, when we want to stream Netflix etc, it will be less than 2, and so totally unusable.

I would be very grateful if someone would respond with a practical solution to, (or an explanation of) our problem.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

jab1 — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 16:39:15 GMT

@MVH_Somerset This a really strange issue, and to be honest, I don't quite understand it either. There is obviously no fault on your line as far as your master socket - the limit of Plusnet or BT's responsibility - and there are only two things which come to mind, for me. One is that something is using the upload very heavily, the other that someone else has somehow connected to your circuit and using it extensively, but I would very much doubt that is likely.

If you are still using the Plusnet Hub, would it be possible to upload a screenshot of its' Help Desk, obscuring any personal details?

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

MVH_Somerset — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 17:01:27 GMT

Thanks for the reply John, and for confirmation that it's a head-scratcher.

I'm afraid I'm back to using my HH5, as I'd like to keep its settings if possible. But I've attached its Help Desk screen.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

jab1 — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 17:08:21 GMT

Thanks for that - forgot the Hub One is based on the HH5A - to be honest, I suspect from that it is something uploading in the background 8.8GB U/L against 1.4GB D/L for ~44 hours uptime points very strongly in that direction.

What OS is your computer running?

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

jab1 — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 17:37:41 GMT

@MVH_Somerset Ignore my comment above - I somehow read the data back to front, my apologies. Afraid we are back to the question of 'why'.

Going back to your original post - this is not a capacity problem at PN's end - otherwise there would be many more than just you complaining.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

Anonymous — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 18:35:17 GMT

We are having the exact same issue. Started Wednesday (22nd December) also. We have had a more or less faultless connection for the last 9 years solid and come Wednesday a totally unusuable connection.

2 Openreach engineers have been called so far, one tested outside, the other inside and replaced the master socket and incomming terminations and found no fault on the line. Plusnet also test remotely and find our line should be achieving maximum speed.

We have replaced the router 3 times, and I have also changed every piece of internal hardware to prove it is not inside the house.

I too am on a fixed IP address and new profiles and issuing a new IP changed nothing.

The issue starts getting progressively worse from around typical office hours say after 9am till around 1/2am in the morning. The speedtest results get progressively worse, at the time of typing its reporting 3.5Mbps. We have been unable to use our connection properly since Wednesday and now massively concerned for both my partner and I work from home and I am going to be unable to do so. I can hardly open the speedtest sites to test the connection let alone anything else.

I decided to run some tests using https://packetlosstest.com/ and found that is indicating that I am losing around 15-28% of downstream packets depending on time of day I run the test, upstream seems more or less unaffected.

If I make voice calls all I hear are robotic voices but apparently I can be heard clearly which would also indicate its a problems with the downstream and not upstream. Games are flashing unstable connection warnings and/or kicking me off completely.

Plusnet and openreach have both been very helpful in trying to find out what is causing the problem but clearly there is an issue somewhere as it's more than a coincidence that both of us have a more or less identical problem originating from the same day.

Once again, we have had a solid connection for 9 years and have been very happy with the service and whatever is going on is cripling the line and is for all intents and purposes unsuable.

Please do reply if you get an answer to this and I will do the same.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

jab1 — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 18:49:19 GMT

@Anonymous - very strange for you too, and as I have said to @MVH_Somerset , it does not make sense that neither BT/OR or PN can find a reason.

Would be interesting to know where you both are - relatively, we don't need addresses - just in case it is a localised problem.

@Anonymous Not that it will show any problems, but could you also post your Help Desk data, redacting any personal details?

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

Anonymous — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 19:21:32 GMT

I am based in Essex.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

Anonymous — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 19:39:02 GMT

Attached are some speed tests from various test sites and some router information. Removed static IP address from the screenshots. Haven't really bothered using it for the last 2 days outside of testing periodically, been using mobile data.

edit: just to add these are on a hardwired connection with nothing else connected.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

jab1 — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 19:46:45 GMT

Thanks for those details, @Anonymous . The speed tests don't paint a very pretty picture, and you do appear to be getting quite a high packet loss figure. I think this needs some PN Help Team intervention as they are able to access more information.

One last request from me - could you run the 'Additional Diagnostics' from the BTW speed test site, and post the results, please?

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

MVH_Somerset — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 19:58:01 GMT

We are in Somerset, so nowhere near Essex 😀

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

jab1 — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 20:00:28 GMT

OK - I kind of worked that one out 😀 - so it isn't a 'localised' problem, then. Strange you should both get a similar problem around the same time, though.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

Anonymous — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 20:11:07 GMT

Yes it is very odd which is why I replied and have posted a link to this thread in my support ticket.

The plusnet team are on the case and escalating, they have all been very helpful just nobody so far has managed to work out where the issue is.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

MVH_Somerset — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 20:27:49 GMT

So, firstly, I just want to say how relieved I am to find out that someone else has exactly the same issue that we do. Thank you so much @Anonymous for taking the time to post here.

Secondly, something I left out of my original post is that we have also been with Plusnet for ages - in our case about 16 years(!) - and unlike you, we did have this same problem in June 2020. I'm sorry to say that it lasted for 2 weeks, with (again) Plusnet and Openreach both insisting that the problem must be inside our house. I was at my wit's end, with (like you) two members of my family needing a good internet connection for work. The good/bad news is that the issue miraculously completely disappeared one day. I immediately rang Plusnet to ask what had happened and they denied that anything had been done by them. What is interesting is that the next day I had a call from an Openreach engineer to ask whether my issue was still there. When I told him it had suddenly gone he said that he believed that Plusnet had "bought some more capacity". Of course that was just hearsay, but remember that it was during the 1st wave of the pandemic and I think all ISPs were struggling to meet demand. It's interesting that our problems this time have started just before Xmas, when again demand must be through the roof.

My third is about the packet loss. I'm attaching a screenshot of the test I've just done, along with another from Fast.com. As you'll see, I'm losing 22.5%. Again, as a layman, I don't know how this might be being caused, but it seems to be a very high figure indeed, and a plausible reason for my slow d/l speeds. Why on earth has no one at PN or Openreach asked me to test this - or if they've tested themselves and not mentioned it to me then why not?

Finally, I've posted another fast.com screenshot. This is a perfect summary of my situation - ie a d/l speed of about 9Mbps (so way below my guaranteed speed), with a 19ms ping, and an u/l speed of 18 again.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

jab1 — Sun, 26 Dec 2021 20:57:30 GMT

@MVH_Somerset I'm not going to dissect your above post - despite my experience, it is as an interested individual with some technical knowledge, not an IT professional.

I suspect the OR engineers comments were 'opportunistic', in that all suppliers would be increasing capacity, and if PN were that short, there would have been mass complaints. IIRC, there were the odd grumbles, but the situation at the time was unique and any capacity problems would have affected more than just PN.

It would be interesting to know at what hops this packet loss occurred, the route it took, and whether the loss was genuine or the result of certain hops intentionally not responding to the request.

The sites you are using for speed tests are not usually accepted as official ones - the only one ISPs using the BT network do is, the BTW site.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

TheMightyAJ — Mon, 27 Dec 2021 09:41:44 GMT

Hi @MVH_Somerset,

I'm really sorry to hear that this has started happening recently. I have to say, this certainly is an odd one. I've read through your posts a couple of times and had a look at the case on the account and before we do anything specific with this, there are a couple of questions that flagged up in my mind, which I'd like to ask you about. Firstly, when you've been carrying out these speed tests, you've mentioned that you're running them over a wired Ethernet connection, however I can't see if you've mentioned rerunning the same tests with an alternate Ethernet cable? It's a longshot admittedly, but Ethernet cables can sometimes be the cause of throughput speed issues, so it may be worth trying a spare if you haven't had chance yet.

The other question I had for you concerns the timing of all this. The fact that this has happened so close to Christmas and gets progressively worse throughout the afternoon/evening suggests to me that this may not be a coincidence. Since this issue started last week have there been any Christmas light displays, either within your own property or the local area, that might line up with the deteriorating speeds? Again, this one may be a bit of a longshot, especially as I can't see any engineers bringing it up before now. However, Christmas lights/displays can be notorious for causing unique and bizarre electrical interference issues at this time of the year, so it's always worth taking into consideration.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

MVH_Somerset — Mon, 27 Dec 2021 10:24:06 GMT

Thank you for looking into this Alex.
To answer your 1st question - I am not relying on just one ethernet cable. My slow speeds are experienced by more than one wired device (including an Apple TV). Additionally, our speeds are also very slow on wifi devices (eg a new iPhone whilst sitting right beside the router).

Yes, there may be some Xmas lights in our vicinity, but none very close. We live in a detached house and the nearest lights are about 100m away and aren't one of those 'OTT' displays.

I'm very disappointed that you haven't responded to the point I made in my last post, where I mention packet loss. Surely this is a significant factor. If you don't believe that to be the case then please explain why.

I've run more tests this morning, including a tracert. These show that d/l speeds decrease when packet loss (p/l) increases. Tracert itself shows asterisks for some packets in some hops, which I assume indicates those packets going astray. I've attached screenshots, but to summarise:
8pm last night - d/l speed 9Mbps, p/l 22%
7:50am this morning - d/l speed 32Mbps, p/l 10%
The Tracert was done at 9:30 this morning.

A question back to you - when we experienced this same issue in June 2020 a 'GEA Test' was carried out, (screenshot attached). Again, I'm only a layman, but could you confirm that this test (and possibly any your colleagues have done this time) doesn't check for packet loss?

Finally, my router shows that there must have been a disconnection at about 2am this morning. That's certainly not something we instigated. Can your system determine what happened then?

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

TheMightyAJ — Mon, 27 Dec 2021 15:06:20 GMT

Hi @MVH_Somerset,

My apologies, I hadn't meant to ignore the question about the packet loss, I was simply trying to establish some additional info in my prior post. You've posted a lot of information here, which is definitely a good thing, but it may mean I won't address every single thing in my responses

Regarding the packet loss, I can certainly see why you'd be drawn to this, especially as it shares similarities to the other case referenced in this thread. With that having been said, it doesn't seem to be the cause of the issue and is more likely just another symptom. One thing I hadn't referenced in my previous post, but I feel is relevant to this line of investigation is that this isn't just a speed issue - the connection itself is very volatile at the moment. You can see a visualized graph of the connection stability here.

I've tried to look into the fault from last year, however I'm afraid that as it happened so long ago, the engineer notes are no longer available on the site and the visual RADIUS information isn't retrievable either. Having read the support ticket logged by ourselves at the time, I think there are some key differences between what had occurred then and what is occurring now however.

For starters, I cannot see any reference to the connection being intermittent at that time, just that the speed followed the same pattern of slowing down throughout the day. The other key thing I noticed is something you've already brought up in this thread - the matter of the capacity having been increased. The engineer that went out on the 24th had spoken to the DCOE team and they hadn't detected anything wrong capacity wise. As this is the case, it seems unlikely to me that this current fault is being caused by whatever had previously caused the fault in the summer of 2020.

My best suggestion for the time being is that we arrange another engineer visit and then speak to our suppliers about changing the location to an external visit to double check the cabinet or exchange. I can see that a member of our Tech Support Team is due to pick this up for review later on today after having chased this up with our suppliers, however if you don't hear back from them, please let us know and we'll be happy to make the necessary arrangements to progress the investigation further.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

jab1 — Mon, 27 Dec 2021 15:27:15 GMT

@TheMightyAJ Now you are on the case, I'm going to stay (relatively) quiet, but that VR looks horrible - is it possible there is a BT network issue here? You seem to suggest that with your later comments, but as @MVH_Somerset has obviously been in touch with you (PN) via the faults route, we aren't going to see everything online, so there is little more I will be able to add.

Re: Openreach engineer finds no fault. PN want to send another.

MVH_Somerset — Mon, 27 Dec 2021 15:47:06 GMT

Thank you again Alex.

I wasn't aware of the disconnections (other than the one in the middle of last night) as we are all using our phones as hotspots so haven't noticed them.

Yes an engineer visit to double check the cabinet and exchange is something which I certainly wouldn't object to. The engineer who came on Friday didn't check the exchange AFAIK.

BTW, you say "Regarding the packet loss, I can certainly see why you'd be drawn to this, especially as it shares similarities to the other case referenced in this thread. With that having been said, it doesn't seem to be the cause of the issue and is more likely just another symptom." Obviously you are the professional, and I'm not, but I would like to know what makes you say this? When I Google 'packet loss' all the info mentions network traffic as a likely cause. For example on packetlosstest.com:

"The causes of packet loss are often the same as the causes for any network issue. The core issue is often network congestion. Too many people are trying to use a network connection at once, and the network routers cannot process what to do with all the packets fast enough so they necessarily have to drop some."

So my theory is still that somewhere in your system, as the day goes on, congestion is occurring, and leading to my slow speeds and packet loss. It would certainly explain why I had a d/l speed of between 55 and 63 Mbps over several tests at about 0750 yesterday morning (Boxing Day - when I suggest consumer demand was pretty small). And that also confirms, IMHO, that there is nothing wrong with the physical connections between the exchange and my devices.

I'm ready to take a call from one of your colleagues in the Support Team any time. Will they be likely to have looked at this thread before calling, do you know?