topic Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced in Full Fibre

Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

markroxxy123 — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:50:28 GMT

I have an offer to renew my contract, however the speeds offered are below what I am currently offered and receiving. Does this mean if I renew, Plusnet intend to reduce the speed on my line?

I currently have a minimum speed guarantee of 20.5mb download and the average speed I receive is 20.5mb, with maximum speeds of 25mb possible.

My renewal quote/offer is for a minimum speed of 16.7mb with speeds estimated at 20-22mb.

Does this mean if I renew I can expect my speeds to drop?

Bearing in mind the BT Wholesale website states a range of 25-40mb download with a handback threshold of 21mb.

Is this standard practice now for ISPs to avoid having to investigate faults?

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

Anoush — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:55:02 GMT

We’d still investigate a fault if your broadband speed drops below the estimated speed range for your line. Are you checking your estimates by address or phone number? I’d recommend the latter as it’s most accurate.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

markroxxy123 — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 09:59:39 GMT

When using the checker I used my landline number.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

TheMightyAJ — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 13:26:31 GMT

Hi @markroxxy123,

I'm sorry for any confusion that this may have caused. It may be best to give our Customer Options Team a call, as they'll be able to confirm what speeds you can expect from a contract. If you want to call the team they can be reached directly on 0800 013 2632 between the hours of 8AM-8PM from Monday to Friday, 9AM-7PM on Saturdays and 9AM-6PM on Sundays.

As @Gandalf has suggested, if the speeds are ever running lower than stated in the contract we're always happy to raise an investigation into the fault - just make sure to let us know as we're not always able to proactively discover faults on the line.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

markroxxy123 — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 17:34:56 GMT

Thanks it looks like Plusnet are having to offering lower estimates compared to its fellow BT Group ISPs (EE and BT now offer higher speed estimates, whereas previously Plusnet was always the highest of the three BT Group ISPs)

Plusnet used to offer the highest speeds and be cheapest of all providers that offered a minimum guarantee, but it is now offers the lowest and is no longer the cheapest option.

I cant report a fault now as the speed I am getting is exactly 20.5mb which is the current minimum as part of my contract.

if I renew, the guarantee is reduced to 16.7mb ( which is lower than I had on ADSL before I moved to plusnet)

I will try calling, but will they really be able to tell me any different from the renewal quote?

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

LaurenB — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 20:30:12 GMT

Thanks for getting back to us @markroxxy123. I am sorry for the concern caused by the estimates.

The newer estimates you have been provided will be based off your observed speeds, you can see further information on this and how it's calculated here: https://www.plus.net/help/legal/ofcom-voluntary-speed-code-of-practice/

I am sorry for any inconvenience this causes. If you have any further queries, just get back to us.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

markroxxy123 — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 21:05:28 GMT

Thanks after speaking on the phone - the response it is what it is, so I will be moving from plusnet once my contract is up on 2nd December.

Like I said earlier it is obviously a case of giving a low estimates so that you never have to investigate potential faults plus orders from above saying you can’t outdo EE and BT - it’s obviously a case of plusnet having to be the third rate budget provider of the BT group. I always wondered why you gave better prices and speeds compared to the others.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

Anoush — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 21:36:32 GMT

Hi @markroxxy123

I’m sorry to see you’ve decided to leave us.

The observed speed is basically a realistic speed we’d expect your line to achieve, so that at the point of sale you’ll know what you’ll be signing up to rather than just a minimum guaranteed and the estimated range.

Nothing’s changing with the way we’ll handle faults. We’ll first and foremostly aim to get your speed above the minimum guaranteed and we’ll still do our best to make sure your speed falls within the estimated range.

When we arrange Openreach engineers, they ultimately look at what the line’s capable of and they’ll do what they can to give you the most possible.

I hope this helps.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

markroxxy123 — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 22:02:25 GMT

I understand the minimum guarantee, I just don’t understand why it’s suddenly reduced by 20% after 2 and a half years. The estimate range is below how the line is performing. It was suggested there may be line degradation, so it appears if I stayed with plusnet that I would see speeds disappear in a few years completely as to would reduce the estimate each year. Is this common place? Is their an expectation that this happens on all lines?

It would be useful to know why the BT Wholesale checker is so wrong in my case 25-40 mbps download estimate against your own of 20-22.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

Anoush — Fri, 12 Nov 2021 23:46:20 GMT

The estimated speed range we’d use when handling faults is based on Openreach’s estimates of your line. You can view these Here which isn’t something we change ourselves. The ‘estimate’ of 20-22mbps we’ve given is likely the ‘observed speed’ we’d use along side the estimated speed range for your line.

Let me know if this doesn’t make sense though?

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

dejjones — Sun, 14 Nov 2021 11:08:58 GMT

This is very interesting.

My contract is up for renewal shortly and I recently reported a noisy line which was resolved.

But in the process my Minimum Guaranteed Speed was reduced from 30.9 to 29.2 Mbps

I have queried why this is, and the current response from PN is that they were not aware that my MGS was ever above 29.2 Mbps.

So apart from a worrying possibility of downgrading standards, it means PN are not honouring guarantees.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

adam945 — Sun, 14 Nov 2021 14:00:47 GMT

Thanks a loot for your time on the phone this afternoon @dejjones

I'm glad I was able to provide further clarify on how we now display both your expected speeds, as well as your minimum guaranteed speed.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

markroxxy123 — Mon, 15 Nov 2021 22:54:27 GMT

Thanks for the reply, but can you explain why plusnet have changed their methodology when calculating estimated line speeds and minimum speed guarantees?

The link you sent was to a BT Wholesale website. Can you send me a link to Openreachs data?

FYI - the information on the BT Wholesale website hasnt changed in months, so therefore Plusnet have changed their methdology.

The observed speed is currently 24.99, but this has been higher (in the 30's) and lower (below 20). In my account the MSG is currently 16.7, but has been higher but typically showed a figure of 23.2.

If Plusnet are now only prepared to guarantee 16.7, it would appear their must be a fault on the line as the MSG is below the handback threshold of 21 or 25 depending on the type of line.

Can you clarify Handback threshold? My understanding is that my minimum speed should be 21 (which explains the previous figure of 20.5 which would be 21 rounded)

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

Anoush — Mon, 15 Nov 2021 23:14:06 GMT

@markroxxy123

We’re providing an observed speed when you sign up to a contract as it’s generally more realistic and accurate to what you should expect from the service but again this is alongside the minimum guaranteed and estimates.

Openreach’s data is from an internal system we call Enhanced Line Characteristics which is not something you can view yourself however BT Wholesale’s availability checker does draw this information from Openreach.

If your download speed is below estimates then if you haven’t done so, I’d raise a fault > faults.plus.net.

With regards to the lower minimum guaranteed, did this change during one contract term? Because it shouldn’t for the length of the agreed contract and we’ll always honour the minimum guaranteed we agree on at the start of the contract. This is because we use that for contract purposes when deciding if we should waive termination fees, should we be given 30 days to investigate a speed fault and fail to bring your speed above your minimum guaranteed.

The handback threshold isn’t relevant. You have a minimum guaranteed for contract purposes, you have an estimated speed range for faults, and you have an observed speed to get an idea of what you’re signing up to. But if you renew your contract without making changes to your broadband then the observed speed here is a little irrelevant for you, because one would assume you already know how your service performs.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

dejjones — Tue, 16 Nov 2021 10:51:55 GMT

@Anoush

Your comments to markroxxy123 have raised these concerns about Plusnet's policies;

1.In my call with adam945, mentioned above, he played down the importance of the MGS and the fact that mine had been changed, and he saw no reason to get it corrected. You pointed out to markroxxy123 that his should not change in the contract period, so could you please arrange for mine to be returned to it's value at the start of my contract (30.9 Mbps).

2. You say estimated speed range should be the criteria for raising faults; my estimated speed has been 38 to 40 MBps ever since I have been on fibre (about 4 years), but my actual speeds have never been that high. So should I be continually reporting a fault?

3. Why are you using BT's observed speeds for anything? They could have been "observed" during a fault. For my line the maximum observed downstream speed is 32.39 MBps and I am currently getting higher speeds than that.

4. I fully understand markroxxy123's concerns about renewing under the current confusing situation.

I have the same concerns, my contract ends shortly too.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

markroxxy123 — Tue, 16 Nov 2021 12:00:38 GMT

At the start of my current contract i was given the following estimates and guarantee

At peak times, we estimate that you'll get the following speeds on your line:

Download 24-36mb

Upload 4-6mb

Minimum Guaranteed Speed: 20.5mb

Current line speed: 33.8mb

When I log in to my account, the MSG has reduced to 16.7mb

If I renew I have to take a 18.5% drop in minimum guaranteed speeds and 16.7 -38.9% drop in estimated speeds

Does this mean Plusnet are not meeting the terms agreed to when I took out my contract?

Should I raise a fault on this basis?

out of interest, why does Plusnet have access to Openreach data that other ISPs dont? Your fellow BT Group ISPs offer higher estimates and MSG.

it does appear the drop in speeds given in the contract renewal are simply so that you don't have to investigate faults.

If I stayed with Plusnet, it looks can I can expect my speed to reduced to zero in a few years and all Plusnet has to do is give a reduced MSG, to avoid having to do anything!

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

adam945 — Tue, 16 Nov 2021 22:30:50 GMT

I'd politely disagree there - in that I don't believe I played down the significance of your minimum guaranteed speed, we instead discussed the difference between your expected speeds, and the MGS. To clarify, it wasn't made clear on the call, we'll raise a fault if your connection is intermittent, if you have no connection at all, and if the speeds on your line are lower than those you were told to expect - NOT your MGS.

Your MGS is significant in that, if it cannot be provided for 30 days, contractually, you're able to leave with no early termination fees. In your case, an agent had incorrectly closed down your query as your speeds were still above those which were guaranteed, again, this was the incorrect thing to do.

I can fully understand our customers concerns about us changing the way in which expected, and minimum guaranteed speeds are now being calculated, and can empathise with their questions as to why and how we're changing these mid contract, and are offering new contracts with the new speed estimates, which are generally lower, compared to previous contracts.

I understand your comment about not raising as many speed faults, though I think it's a two way sword. The new way in which speeds are being estimated is more accurate, meaning we'll be setting better expectations with our customers in regards to what speeds their line is likely to achieve, thus resulting in fewer speed issues being raised.

As has pointed out on this thread, we're not changing the way / threshold in which faults are going to be raised, so if your speeds drop below those you were told to expect, we're still on hand to investigate and get these faults raised for you.

Moderator's note by Mike (Mav): Edited for typos.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

dejjones — Tue, 16 Nov 2021 18:49:15 GMT

@adam945

OK maybe playing it down was the wrong description of what you said, but the main point about MGS from my perspective is that PN have reduced it during the contract, which in this thread anoush says shouldn't happen. I have raised this several times, including with you, but no one thinks it is important enough to put it back to the original contract value (30.9 MBps)

On the other issue discussed in your phone calls, you led me to believe that towards the end of my contract I would be offered a renewal deal equivalent to new customer deals, as Plusnet's way of honouring the commitment to OFCOM that I raised.

Today I received an email which contained the following

If this is what you meant by Plusnet honouring that commitment, I am very disappointed, and I am sure that it is not what OFCOM intended.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

markroxxy123 — Tue, 16 Nov 2021 19:37:49 GMT

So it looks like Plusnet are pushing the boundaries in relation to contract law!

I guess in my case it’s because they don’t want me to renew. Changing the speed estimates and MSG in the last month of the contract, means their is no point in arguing and I will just leave for another ISP.

It’s obviously too expensive for Plusnet to abide by the law and OFCOM Rules. I wonder if based on the number of faults I have raised I am no longer economically viable as a customer.

I wasn’t looking to move ISPs, but it seems I have no choice if I want to keep my current speeds.

I will make a point of not choosing a BT Group ISP.

Re: Renewal quote - minimum speed reduced

Gandalf — Wed, 17 Nov 2021 15:07:17 GMT

Thanks for getting back to us.

@markroxxy123

I'm sorry to see your minimum guaranteed speed has dropped during your contract. I tried to call you today but there was no answer. As I've explained, this shouldn't change for the length of your contract. I can see though it has done which would be due to a system error.

When looking at whether we're able to waive termination fees due to a speed fault, we'll always look at the minimum guaranteed speed agreed at the start of your contract. In this case, it's 20.5mbps.

Speed estimates however can change as they're the expectations of a line.

I'll try calling you tomorrow, if there's a good time between 8am and 4:30pm let me know.

[edit]

I'd like to note though if you renew with us even though the minimum guaranteed & speed estimates will be lower on the new contract, this doesn't automatically mean your speed will drop as no changes will be made on your actual line.

@dejjones

I can see @adam945 has ownership of your complaint and he'll call you back as soon as he can to discuss further.

Moderator's note by Dick (Strat): Personal information removed from a public forum (to an area that staff can see).