topic Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss in Everything else

ADSL and PSTN Loss

Archer — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 10:25:29 GMT

While considering the possible loss of my ASDL broadband service with Plusnet when the PSTN is withdrawn, I realise I am not fully aware of the contractual implications.

Maybe the forum can help me understand?

Does the telephone service and broadband service form part of the same contract with Plusnet or is the telephone service something separate?

I have often seen on the forum that when Plusnet cannot provide PSTN and broadband “customers may transfer to BT without early cancelation fees”. Does this mean that if the customer wants to go to another provider, the customer still has to pay early cancelation fees even though it is Plusnet that is unable to provide the service?

If the customer takes no action and at some point Plusnet cease broadband and PSTN service, does the customer still have to pay Plusnet or is transfer to BT the default position?

BT will only provide broadband to an ADSL line if the digital voice product is taken as well, (according to BT). A customer not requiring PSTN service is thus forced into additional expense if obliged to move to BT. Would taking this additional product be seen as grounds for starting a new 24 month contract?

If transferring to BT, would BT’s more expensive charges apply and does a new 24month contract start anyway?

Once Plusnet announces its intention to withdraw service, what is the best way to stop being a BT Group customer?

There are probably many other questions to ask, so please forgive omissions.

Many thanks in advance.

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

Baldrick1 — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 11:15:16 GMT

Moderator's note:
Thread moved from Broadband to Everything Else

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

MisterW — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 11:29:43 GMT

Does the telephone service and broadband service form part of the same contract with Plusnet or is the telephone service something separate?

Its a single contract

Where the customer voluntarily wishes to change their service and retain the phone, then a transfer to BT/EE will not be subject to ETCs whereas transfer to another supplier will.

If the customer takes no action and at some point Plusnet cease broadband and PSTN service, does the customer still have to pay Plusnet or is transfer to BT the default position?

We've not seen any cases of this yet, but Plusnet would effectively be terminating the contract and so one should be able to transfer to any other supplier without ETCs.

BT will only provide broadband to an ADSL line if the digital voice product is taken as well, (according to BT).

TBH Digital voice will not work very well over an ADSL connection, there is not sufficient upstream bandwidth. It really needs FTTC or FTTP to give a reasonable quality of service.

If transferring to BT, would BT’s more expensive charges apply and does a new 24month contract start anyway?

I would assume so.

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

corringham — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 11:45:32 GMT

I wrote a longer but similar reply to MisterW's but was blocked from posting it because the topic had been moved and my post was lost.

The main point I made that isn't explicit in MisterW's reply is that very few ISPs are willing and able to provide SOADSL - ADSL without PSTN. Plusnet don't so once PSTN is switch off there will be no ADSL from Plusnet.

My advice would be to start planning now - check what services are available and which ISPs can provide them. In the absence of FTTC/FTTP/Virgin/altnet/4G/5G it may well be that your only option would be BT. Do note that 4G can be usable even in areas with poor signal with the use of a suitable external router (I've done that in the past).

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

Anonymous — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 12:21:25 GMT

@MisterW

"TBH Digital voice will not work very well over an ADSL connection, there is not sufficient upstream bandwidth. It really needs FTTC or FTTP to give a reasonable quality of service."

This is the first time that I have read such a comment. Previous advice that I have seen has always been that VOIP generally, (I know that BT Digital Voice is a slightly modified form of VOIP), uses so little bandwidth that it will work over just about any broadband connection?

I'm trying to think back to my BT Apprenticeship, 40 years ago. Although I didn't specialise in Digital Transmission at the time, I'm sure that standard speech band telephony circuits were were running over 64kbps channels*, even with the audio codecs then available.I would think that with more modern codecs now available, even when Digital Voice was being developed, that even less bandwidth would be required, (or is the same bandwidth used, but higher quality voice transmission)?

Does anyone know what bandwidth and audio codec are used for VOIP generally and BT Digital Voice in particular?

* 30 channel PCM, (actually 30 speech channels + 2 for signalling and synchronisation etc), ran over 2MBit, (2048kbps), line systems.

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

MisterW — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 12:41:41 GMT

@Anonymous Does anyone know what bandwidth and audio codec are used for VOIP generally and BT Digital Voice in particular?

Voip in general uses G.711 which , as you say uses around 64k/bits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.711. I've no idea what BT DV uses and they likely wont tell us!

Yes, in principle, there's sufficient bandwith ( say 800K/bit upstream ) on an ADSL connection but, without some form of QoS, if you use the broadband simultaneously with a voip call, then the upstream bandwidth available for voip could well be limited and you'll get voice quality degradation and dropouts. Unfortunately AFAIK the BT Smart Hub in conjunction with most ISP routers doesnt provide QoS.

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

outcast — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 12:42:11 GMT

Just a few suggestions for ISPs that still offer ADSL or SOADSL

ISPs that specifically offer SOADSL -

ISPs that still offer ADSL, but would need clarification whether they would offer SOADSL when the PSTN is switched off -

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

bmc — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 12:43:34 GMT

@Archer

Have you checked recently to see what services are available to you via OpenReach.

Use https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL

Brian

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

outcast — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 13:23:43 GMT

@MisterW wrote:

Yes, in principle, there's sufficient bandwith ( say 800K/bit upstream ) on an ADSL connection but, without some form of QoS, if you use the broadband simultaneously with a voip call, then the upstream bandwidth available for voip could well be limited and you'll get voice quality degradation and dropouts. Unfortunately AFAIK the BT Smart Hub in conjunction with most ISP routers doesnt provide QoS.

Just to expand on that,

if someone currently on ADSL is intending to migrate their phone number to a digital service, then you'll need to -

Ensure you have at least 800Kbps upload speed.
Plan on buying a router with upload bandwidth QoS control, and preferably with VoIP traffic prioritization.
Use a real VoIP service rather than "Digital Voice" (as DV is locked to ISP router which tend not to have QoS)

Having myself used VoIP over ADSL for several years, VoIP without QoS is hopeless (if the broadband is simultaneously being used for anything else) as the VoIP latency goes to unacceptable delay timings and unusable call quality.

FWIW with both bandwidth control QoS and VoIP traffic prioritisation, the lowest usable upload I achieved was around 710 to 720Kbps (with a lot of effort prioritising and de-prioritising various traffic), so @MisterW 's 800Kbps is a good rule of thumb.

the lowest upstream

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

Archer — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 13:51:14 GMT

Thank you all for all your most welcomed input.

To summarise:

Assuming PSTN disappears mid contract.

Option 1: migrate to BT with no Plusnet termination charges but pay more for a phone service which may not work.

Option 2: wait for Plusnet to terminate the contract and be cut off, pay no early termination charges, then order broadband from a new ISP which supports ADSL.

Choosing to do anything else will incur charges.

Is that the jist of it?

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

bmc — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 13:52:35 GMT

@Archer

You have to check what's available at your property. Specifically SOADSL

Brian

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

Baldrick1 — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 14:07:54 GMT

@Archer wrote:

BT will only provide broadband to an ADSL line if the digital voice product is taken as well, (according to BT).

Really? I would fact check this statement?

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

outcast — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 14:19:14 GMT

@Archer - how many months do you have left on your Plusnet contract ?

Looking at this - Plusnet - How we work out Early Leaving Charges

the actual cost of leaving early probably isn't as bad as you might think,

especially when you consider that you are unlikely to be forced to make a decision for perhaps another six months.

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

Archer — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 14:43:35 GMT

Responding to questions.

SOTAP is available from OR but not all ISPs, (eg Plusnet), sell it.

The requirement of BT to provide DV as well as ADSL came from a discussion with BT. Not clear how to independently verify that.

Contract has 14mths to run. I agree 6 months is a likely time to have to jump ship. Termination charges would be less than I had thought, but worth avoiding if possible.

These are just the sort of things I need to be clear about. Thank you.

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

Baldrick1 — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 15:00:51 GMT

@Archer wrote:

The requirement of BT to provide DV as well as ADSL came from a discussion with BT. Not clear how to independently verify that.

Ring and ask again, you might get a different answer.

Contract has 14mths to run. I agree 6 months is a likely time to have to jump ship.

If you are happy with your current service then don't 'jump ship', but wait until you are officially told that it's necessary. There's still time for the switch off to be delayed. Wait and see what alternatives you are offered.

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

Townman — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 18:21:49 GMT

Seeing a change in terminology herein, which confused me, I did a bit of digging...

Openreach have a product called SOTAP.
BT Wholesale buy SOTAP and sell it as SOADSL.
Different terminology for the same thing.

I thought SOTAP was a voice only service where a user only has WLR (voice only) and no broadband. Not very helpful ... but that is BT for you - should I really expect it to be better?

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

jab1 — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 18:36:04 GMT

@Townman wrote:

I thought SOTAP was a voice only service where a user only has WLR (voice only) and no broadband. Not very helpful ... but that is BT for you - should I really expect it to be better?

In a word - no.

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

outcast — Sun, 02 Feb 2025 19:16:50 GMT

@Townman wrote:

I thought SOTAP was a voice only service where a user only has WLR (voice only) and no broadband.

You are describing "SOTAP for Analogue" which is a specific example of a SOTAP (Single Order Transitional Access Product)

"SOTAP" is the general term for any transitional technology which allows Openreach to decommission the analogue parts of their network, typically by providing a temporary means of using SOADSL with some degree of emulation of an existing analogue service.

Taking "SOTAP for Analogue" as an example, that is a device which the customer plugs their analogue phone handset in to, and the phone works as it did before, however the line to the exchange is no longer analogue, instead the analogue signals are emulated via SOADSL.

Openreach could deploy other types of SOTAPs to overcome specific issues, such as PSTN connected alarm systems, lift warning systems, or whatever else they find before the 31st January 2027 switch off deadline.

All types of SOTAP are expected to be withdrawn by 2030, when the telephone exchanges start to be decommissioned.

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

Archer — Tue, 04 Feb 2025 11:55:55 GMT

Following the advice above, I contacted BT again.

The story this time was that broadband only over ADSL is possible.

I'll try again at some point for a majority verdict.

Does not fill a potential customer with confidence though.

Re: ADSL and PSTN Loss

outcast — Tue, 04 Feb 2025 13:30:54 GMT

@Archer wrote:

The story this time was that broadband only over ADSL is possible.

That is TRUE. (although technically "broadband only" ADSL should be described as SOADSL).

Moving to any ISP supplying ADSL / SOADSL, they can ONLY provide broadband - as analogue voice CANNOT be ordered from Openreach.

Whether they also support VoIP or "Digital Voice" over your broadband data is a separate question, and you would need assurances that they are providing some sort of QoS (as previously discussed) to ensure your VoIP phone calls don't collapse if your ADSL broadband is being used by something on your home network, because your digital phone calls are sharing the VERY limited upload bandwidth that ADSL has available.