topic Re: FTTP where access over premises is required? in Everything else

FTTP where access over premises is required?

G6JPG-0 — Fri, 05 Jul 2024 10:24:04 GMT

1. According to one of the checking sites, my exchange (Charing, Kent ["near" Ashford]; 01233 712XXX) is "FTTP not available".

2. I'm perfectly happy with what I've got - copper connection at my end, giving me 30-40 down, 9-10 up, and ordinary POTS 'phone. (Yes, I know that last won't survive beyond either 2025 or 2027, and am looking into VoIP.)

However, it looks like FTTP is the way things are going, so I was wondering: Do OpenReach have some sort of left-over access right, from the GPO days, or can an obstructive land/property owner make problems when they need to lay the fibre? I'm in the situation where I own my home (the building), but not the land it stands on (for which I pay rent) - it's a park home site (like a caravan or camp site, but more substantial). But I presume the same sort of question arises for people living in blocks of flats, where they own (probably leashold) the flat, but the cables (fibres) come through communal areas they don't.

Presumably OpenReach come onto the land to fix faults with the existing copper structure - or is it that they do, but don't ask and hope nobody finds out and forbids them?

As I say, I'm perfectly happy (technically, anyway) with what I have (which I guess is FTTC); I'm just wondering if there will be problems should FTTP be forced on us. Can a landlord impose problems - if only by making charges - in a way similar to the problems some home owners discover when they find someone else owns a "ransom strip" of land over the entrance to their drive, for example?

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

dvorak — Fri, 05 Jul 2024 20:26:53 GMT

Moderators Note

This topic has been moved from Broadband to Everything Else

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

greygit1 — Fri, 05 Jul 2024 22:44:19 GMT

The same situation may arise where a property is accessed over land owned by another third party (which is rather similar to your status?)

There would probably be protracted negotiations between the service provider (telecoms, gas, electricity, water) and relevant landowner(s). These access negotiations may take 5+ years. Even if (say) replacing suspected slightly leaky gas pipework. Unless there was a pre-exiting 'wayleave'.

Access rights can be part of things called 'way-leave'. Simply put - there's a sum of money payed to the property owner to secure the access rights. Or it could be written into the deeds of a proprty you purchase. It could be a one-off, it could be annual. It revolves around a third party having their 'stuff' in or on 'your' land, and requiring access.

I am not a lawyer, but have been on the sidelines of one 'event' where infrastructure stuff happened (and the negotiations took over 5 years) and know of a separate 'wayleave' agreement where other infrstrucure stuff happens. (And a little bit more)

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

Baldrick1 — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 07:07:25 GMT

It occurs to me that replacing an existing overhead copper line with fibre or using the copper to pull fibre through an existing underground duct is nothing but maintaining the existing connection, lets face it, the old copper infrastructure is essentially worn out.

I would expect existing rights of access for maintenance would have been transferred to Openreach.

If the current connection is directly buried, meaning a new duct has to be trenched in, might well be a different issue as this would be a new connection. One might assume that Openreach can't just turn up on some-one elses land and start digging it up without agreement.

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

G6JPG-0 — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 08:06:55 GMT

Thanks, that more or less agrees with what I'd guessed. (I'd disagree that using the copper to pull a fibre through an existing duct is strictly just "maintenance", but in practice I doubt openreach ask anyone's permission if that can be done.)

I've no idea whether my existing connection is via a duct or directly buried; it works well! Any idea what proportion are buried (presumably that means the raw cable is just buried in the ground) and what are ducted?

If the exchange checker (https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL/AddressHome) says ("on Exchange CHARING is served by Cabinet 7")

"FTTP is not available.

The exchange is not in a current fibre priority programme", is it fairly unlikely I'll experience pressure to move to FTTP in the near future (other than from PlusNet's marketing department)? As I've said, I'm happy with the (30/9, presumably FTTC) service I have now.

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

jab1 — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 08:20:47 GMT

@G6JPG-0 wrote:

If the exchange checker (https://www.broadbandchecker.btwholesale.com/#/ADSL/AddressHome) says ("on Exchange CHARING is served by Cabinet 7")

"FTTP is not available.

The exchange is not in a current fibre priority programme", is it fairly unlikely I'll experience pressure to move to FTTP in the near future (other than from PlusNet's marketing department)? As I've said, I'm happy with the (30/9, presumably FTTC) service I have now.

If FTTP (from OR) is not available, Plusnets marketing department - or anyone else - can't 'pressure' you to move to a non-existent service.

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

Baldrick1 — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 09:22:24 GMT

@G6JPG-0 wrote:

I've no idea whether my existing connection is via a duct or directly buried; it works well! Any idea what proportion are buried (presumably that means the raw cable is just buried in the ground) and what are ducted?

A neighbour recently asked that question of BT/Openreach, I'm not sure which. The answer was that new installations after the early 70s should be ducted, so it is allegedly installation date related. I have no idea when overhead connections were replaced with underground cables, presumably when new estates were being built in greenfield areas, home owners could afford and wanted a telephone and there were no pre-existing pre-war telegraph poles, my guess, in the late 50s/60s. Our house, which was completed about 1972 has a directly buried telephone cable which runs under the floor to a socket in the centre of the property.

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

MisterW — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 10:33:23 GMT

Our house, which was completed about 1972 has a directly buried telephone cable which runs under the floor to a socket in the centre of the property.

Similar in our previous house built around 1972. Buried cable to an Openreach junction box on the outside front wall, then cable underfloor to a Master socket that was nowhere near a power socket. Fortunately the master socket magically moved itself to a more convenient location and the cable from the jb rerouted internally via the attached garage!

Current house, built 1966 is o/h feed and is now FTTP.

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

Archer — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 11:19:39 GMT

I have a similar questions which will probably return the same answer but I'll check anyway, so please bear with.

The area where I live is served by OpenReach ADSL and Virgin Media (VM). I suspect the presents of VM means OR fibre is a long way off.

My neighbour and I are content with ADSL for now, but a faster service from VM may become tempting for my neighbour.

The direct way from the footpath to my neighbours house for a cable is be across my front lawn (This is how the direct buried copper OR cable currently feeds both houses), rather than go right round my neighbours frontage. . Would VM have any rights to cut across my lawn?

Also if fibre via OR became available and I agreed that OR could dig to feed my house. Would that then give OR the right to dig in my front lawn at a later date to feed my neighbour?

Many thanks in advance.

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

Baldrick1 — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 11:39:18 GMT

This is an interesting document with many answers: https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/obtaining-wayleaves. Note that they can use the courts is necessary!

@Archer

See the final FAQ 'What are flying wires'.

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

Anonymous — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 13:20:46 GMT

@Baldrick1 @MisterW

Do the ground floors of the houses that you are both referring to have suspended wooden floors, or are they, (like my current house), solid concrete?

I was wondering how easy it would have been to replace that internal under-floor cable if it has ever gone faulty?

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

MisterW — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 13:27:11 GMT

Do the ground floors of the houses that you are both referring to have suspended wooden floors

@Anonymous mine certainly had suspended floors

As I said, I replaced the cable from the JB using external grade cable, routing it above ground through the garage and then through the dividing wall into the lounge where the Master socket had moved to.

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

bmc — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 13:35:44 GMT

@Archer

VM have no rights to dig up your lawn. You would have to give them permisson.

If OR do come along then I suspect they would bury ducts in the ground with a branch for your neighbour if they so wished a service.

Brian

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

Baldrick1 — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 14:03:19 GMT

@Anonymous wrote:

@Baldrick1 @MisterW

I was wondering how easy it would have been to replace that internal under-floor cable if it has ever gone faulty?

Others would have to tell SWMBO that her solid oak floorboards had to be ripped up, I wouldn't dare!

Apart from that a new cable couldn't be brought to that location without digging up the drive, a total non starter!

We are in the early stage of having FTTP installed in the road, at the moment our local NIMBY is running around excitedly moaning about 10m poles. FTTP will have to enter the property elsewhere, so I will have some Ethernet cabling to install.

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

pvmb — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 14:46:13 GMT

@Archer wrote:

The area where I live is served by OpenReach ADSL and Virgin Media (VM). I suspect the presents of VM means OR fibre is a long way off.

Could you please explain the thinking here, just out of curiosity. I am currently on FTTC (with FTTP "Unavailable" on a "Non Priority" exchange) but also in an area served (more or less) by Virgin Media.

TIA

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

Archer — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 17:23:32 GMT

pvmb,

The reasoning here is:

I am in a fairly small cabinet area which was not provided with FTTC when adjacent areas were rolled out years ago. I assume this is because the small area makes it difficult for OR to justify the investment.

Meanwhile VM has proved very popular in the absence of FTTC, for those who want better than ADSL.(I have looked to see who has a VM feed).

When we look at FTTP roll out, I assume similar investment criteria would apply, but now even fewer households would be available to takeup the new service as many already have service from VM.

Hence I would not be surprised if OR decided to invest their money elsewhere and left my little patch till the tail end of copper recovery, which I would expect to be around 2030.

I would love to be wrong.

Archer

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

bmc — Sat, 06 Jul 2024 20:08:58 GMT

@Archer

You could always have a look at www.openreach.com to see if there are any current plans. The fact that you only have ADSL could work in your favour.

Brian

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

G6JPG-0 — Sun, 07 Jul 2024 09:30:39 GMT

This is an interesting document with many answers: https://www.openreach.com/help-and-support/obtaining-wayleaves. Note that they can use the courts is necessary!

Yes, interesting. Thanks for the link!

I wonder, if OR do have to go to court (which they say they try to avoid), does the person who's being awkward have to be told who (what address) wanted the provision? (Not that I do, I'm quite happy with my [what I assume is] FTTC. I live alone and don't download many movies or do other things that need high bandwidth.)

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

G6JPG-0 — Sun, 07 Jul 2024 09:42:46 GMT

@G6JPG-0 wrote:

I've no idea whether my existing connection is via a duct or directly buried; it works well! Any idea what proportion are buried (presumably that means the raw cable is just buried in the ground) and what are ducted?

Thanks. I believe this home was sited about 1999 or 2000, so it should thus be ducted, unless the site owner "did things on the cheap". Where there is (what would originally have only been) a telephone connection, would OR (or BT, or the GPO) have always insisted on being involved with the provision including the last few yards, or could builders (and especially site owners, such as park home/caravan/camping) insist on doing that themselves (and possibly thus just burying)?

[At my previous home - also a park home site - the telephone cable, which I'm pretty sure was just buried, over the years worked its way to the surface, until it encountered a lawnmower; but I think that was a much older site. (CM2 8LF)]

Re: FTTP where access over premises is required?

Anunnaki — Sun, 07 Jul 2024 09:57:47 GMT

@G6JPG-0 wrote:

[At my previous home - also a park home site ... ... ... that was a much older site. (CM2 8LF)]

@G6JPG-0

Did you move from there because of the neighbours constantly knocking on your door ?

(British HQ of Jehovah's Witnesses)