topic Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing in Email

Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

softhedgehog — Sat, 10 Jun 2023 08:50:21 GMT

From some time on May, my messages to all gmail accounts simply vanished - no bounce, nothing in receiver's spam. I have a non-PlusNet domain name which I use for the "From" address but send via the PlusNet servers.

I found This post about adding an SPF record to the domain. I did this and I was then able to receive email on my own (free) gmail account. However, it seems random whether other people receive my messages. Of about six other addresses I have tried, approximately half of them arrive with no problem, the others again vanish.

Is there some other SPF element that is missing?

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Townman — Sat, 10 Jun 2023 09:04:39 GMT

Why are you using Plusnet SMTP servers to send as a third party domain name? You should be using the third party's SMTP services.

You are experiencing the random behaviour of Gmail's behaviour in respect of their free Gmail services - they have published clearly that they will RANDOMLY IMPOSE the requirement of OPTIONAL RFCs on inbound mail. Best recommendation is to ditch free Gmail accounts.

A pragmatic solution is to use your domain provider's own SMTP servers.

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Baldrick1 — Sat, 10 Jun 2023 11:10:49 GMT

@softhedgehog

Your link is for adding a SPF record to a Plusnet hosted domain. For third party domains use this. https://community.plus.net/t5/Email/SPF-record/m-p/1741932#M31139

@Townman

I have a namesco domain that comes with free email addresses with limited storage. There is no free smpt service to match so if I use this I send through Plusnet’s server citing my namesco address as the sender.

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

softhedgehog — Sat, 10 Jun 2023 13:10:40 GMT

I suspect that my link might not have pointed to the exact replay that I was following. I think that the result is the same since I have

v=spf1 a mx include:_spf-internal.plus.net include:_spf-internal2.plus.net ~all

on my domain name.

My domain name provider does not provide SMTP services (nor storage for emails, only the addresses) which is why I doing things as I do. Also I can't prevent others from using free gmail accounts 🙄

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Baldrick1 — Sat, 10 Jun 2023 13:28:15 GMT

@softhedgehog

Are you using these settings for your email client send settings? https://www.plus.net/help/email-guides/how-to-set-up-plusnet-email/

Note SMTP authentication should be ON.

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

softhedgehog — Sat, 10 Jun 2023 16:14:17 GMT

I had all except the authentication (not sure how I missed that). One of the recipients got a message after I sent it, so maybe we are fixed now. I'll have to see whether that was simply a random success.

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Townman — Sun, 11 Jun 2023 20:41:44 GMT

@softhedgehog and @Baldrick1

I think that you have answered my question most eloquently:

You have your domain names hosted somewhere else where the hosting company only facilitates email forwarding and declines to offer the means to send emails for free. The then consequences of attempting to send using that domain name becomes the support problem of the service you have chosen as the target of the email redirection service.

In short their reluctance to offer a proper email service becomes someone else's problem, when Gmail starts imposing non-mandatory standards. There is nothing quite like passing the buck!

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Baldrick1 — Mon, 12 Jun 2023 10:06:55 GMT

@Townman

To be fair to, in my case, Namesco, it is a freebie add on. I did have the option of paying for a proper email service. I do not send many emails to Gmail accounts but have had no issues having added the Plusnet SPF record to the Namesco email settings.

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

softhedgehog — Mon, 12 Jun 2023 10:53:20 GMT

It seems that all the gmail accounts I am sending to receive my mails. Thanks for all the help.

Yes, I agree with Townsman that this is a stupid situation. It is ultimately Google's fault for imposing non-standard requirements. PlusNet tried the same several years ago and had to retract since nearly all emails sent to PlusNet accounts vanished without trace. Google just bullies everyone else into conforming so it is they who are passing the buck..

When I set up this around 20 years ago it was a sensible way to go. Maybe I would not do the same now.

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Baldrick1 — Mon, 12 Jun 2023 11:26:24 GMT

To be honest I agree with the Gmail stance. In the early days there was little need for securing emails. These days with e-commerce, banking etc and the web infested with phishers, scammers, spammers etc. there is justification for forcing change.

It’s time that the international agreement was updated and ancient systems that don’t enforce basic protection either be updated or retired.

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Townman — Mon, 12 Jun 2023 11:44:33 GMT

@Baldrick1 wrote:

It’s time that the international agreement was updated and ancient systems that don’t enforce basic protection either be updated or retired.

Be VERY careful what you wish for!

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

MisterW — Mon, 12 Jun 2023 11:57:16 GMT

It's interesting that Google aren't applying the authentication requirement to their paid accounts! Seems that they don't wish to upset their paying customers by bouncing their email! They're hoping that they can cajole all email providers into adopting SPF/DKIM as a mandatory requirement from the 'noise' generated by their 'free' customers. Once they've achieved that, then they can safely apply the same rules to paid accounts!

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Townman — Mon, 12 Jun 2023 12:01:53 GMT

Or get users of other mail services to abandon those providers and flock to Gmail so that Google can mine the content of their correspondence.

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Baldrick1 — Mon, 12 Jun 2023 12:26:43 GMT

@MisterW wrote:

It's interesting that Google aren't applying the authentication requirement to their paid accounts!

Maybe it’s my naivety. It occurred to me that the majority of their accounts are freebies and this was perhaps a move to reduce the heaven no how much suspicious junk landing on their servers.
For the avoidance of doubt, I am not a supporter of ‘free’ email accounts. It’s just the security thing that in my opinion, needs improving.

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Townman — Mon, 12 Jun 2023 12:30:46 GMT

If one reads the SPF rules, unless there IS a SPF record which mandates a HARD FAIL if the SPF record is not matched, a SPF failure SHOULD be delivered with a warming that the mail might be spam.

There is zero legitimacy in Gmail only part implementing non-mandatory protocols. He who bangs the rule book, should first ensure that they themselves are fully compliant with the law!

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Baldrick1 — Mon, 12 Jun 2023 13:51:58 GMT

I seemed to fought myself into a corner from which I appear to be a supporter of Gmail's approach. This is not what I intended. I am simply banging the drum for the mandating of any process that will keep the bad guys at bay as far as is practicable.

If one reads the SPF rules, unless there IS a SPF record which mandates a HARD FAIL if the SPF record is not matched, a SPF failure SHOULD be delivered with a warming that the mail might be spam.

How often are these rules applied? The implication is that they aren't. If applied correctly would many legitimate emails be marked as possible or probable spam? If so, presumably such messages would end up in a rarely checked spam folder and/or deleted by the recipient without being read?

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

MisterW — Mon, 12 Jun 2023 14:08:22 GMT

How often are these rules applied?

From what I can see, from my two email providers, lack of or SOFT FAIl SPF is used to increase Spam scoring rather than to explicitly mark as spam.

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Townman — Mon, 12 Jun 2023 14:20:16 GMT

The decision to enforce SPF rules is a decision made by the receiving email service. That requires...

Looking to see if there is a SPF for the sender's email domain
If a SPF record is found...
1. Check to see if the sending SMPT server is in the permitted list - if it is, it is a PASS
2. Check to see what the FAIL rule is specified by the sending domain
  1. HARD FAIL - do not accept the email
  2. SOFT FAIL - accept the email and optionally mark it as potential SPAM
If no SPF record is found - result is NONE which is not the same as FAIL

See section 8 here - RFC 7208: Sender Policy Framework (SPF) for Authorizing Use of Domains in Email, Version 1 (rfc-editor.org)

Further G2 in the context of processing (reasonably SOFT) "FAIL" states

result in the email being marked negatively in some way (this might be via delivery to a special spam folder, modifying subject lines, or other locally determined means)

Ditching NONE outcomes can readily be read as not compliant with the spirit of the RFC.

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

Townman — Mon, 12 Jun 2023 23:24:17 GMT

@Baldrick1

We have a perfect storm here brought about in part by a big bully boy. Gmail can offer free email services on the back of all the money they make from mining email content. I cannot believe that the content of email on their services is in examined and is not exploited commercially.

This is a consequence of users wanting, expecting email for free. In other spaces, how do users expect organisations which attract no revenues to maintain email services to the state of the art levels you imply? It is not a reasonable expectation. Unfortunately your suggestions come true, they get retired.

The industry has seen many ISPs ditch email entirely - the JLP brand goes soon, orange went a long m time ago, as did Tesco and have countless others.

Personally if emails sent to Gmail bounce I ask them to provide and address with an alternative competent email provider. Sometimes the alternative address is a Plusnet one … and all is OK. And no those emails are not originating from my Plusnet account but from a state of the art email service with every bell and whistle going … and Gmail still whinges.

Re: Emails to gmail randomly disappearing

kmw350 — Sun, 20 Aug 2023 09:57:39 GMT

I have read through this post several times but I simply cannot understand what I have to do to once again get my emails received by Gmail accounts. I have only just discovered that I am suffering the same problem as the OP, but I don't know how to add the SPF record, if that is what is needed to fix this.

Can you please explain this in simple terms?

So far, in Outlook, I have changed my outgoing smtp server to 587, & encrypted connection to TLS. Then in my third party domain (Freeola), I have found a setting to add a DNS record, but I do not know which option to select, or where to type your line

v=spf1 a mx include:_spf-internal.plus.net include:_spf-internal2.plus.net ~all

, any help would be gratefully received.