topic Re: Imap and spam filter training query in Email

Imap and spam filter training query

Kwak — Fri, 27 May 2022 15:49:47 GMT

At one point we could forward emails to train the plusnet spam filter. I'm GUESSING using the webmail would also do it (mark not spam / is spam etc is connect to the plusnet systems, well at least that's way I'd have it wired!).

I'm wondering .. if I'm using imap and Thunderbird, and I see a mail that's spam .. and mark it as junk in TB then move to spam folder, does either of these "train" the plusnet spam filter? I'm guessing the marking just affects Thunderbird's spam filter, but does dragging into the spam folder train the Plusnet filter?

Also, same in reverse, does, in imap, moving a valid email from spam to inbox help "train" the PN spam filter?

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

jab1 — Fri, 27 May 2022 18:52:34 GMT

@Kwak I'm not an expert on this, especially where you use IMAP, but my suggestion would be to check and move (mark) the mail as required in webmail FIRST, before downloading to TB - I do this in a slightly convoluted manner as mail is first checked in MailWasher, and spam marked as such in webmail - BEFORE being downloaded to TB - seems to work OK that way.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

Baldrick1 — Fri, 27 May 2022 21:50:16 GMT

I use. POP3 account with another provider and do my own spam filtering so don’t know. As one person’s spam is another’s useful information I would question whether every user has a programmable spam filter or whether there’s only one general filter for all users.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

jab1 — Sat, 28 May 2022 07:11:23 GMT

@Baldrick1 A lot of people probably don't have 'a progammable spam filter', but a hell of a lot do - Mailwasher is very popular. From what I have seen on various forums, however, a great number of internet users don't know how to avoid spam, or how to deal with it when they get it. Most spam is obvious, but many still seem to download and open it regardless.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

Baldrick1 — Sat, 28 May 2022 07:34:43 GMT

@jab1

I was referring to the Plusnet email service.

I have a different way of reducing spam to an absolute minimum. I regularly check my email addresses against the https://haveibeenpwned.com/ database. If the address has been released to the bad guys I change it. It's a bit of a pain to do but I have a record of every address that I register with a website on an encrypted USB stick along with their unique password (I use KeePass), which just makes it just a housekeeping task. This is also a good opportunity to weed out the accounts that I no longer use.

I have not had to change an address for several years.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

jab1 — Sat, 28 May 2022 07:47:39 GMT

Get you, @Baldrick1 . I too use the 'haveibeenpwnd' site, but surprisingly, apart from one site (can't remember which) that got caught a few years back now, none of my addresses have appeared on there since it started. Thunderbird has highlighted Facebook as a possible victim, but as I no longer use it, I have ignored the warning, and not had any spam which could be linked to it - I used a unique mailbox to subscribe.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

Mook — Sat, 28 May 2022 09:26:36 GMT

A bit off topic but if you have a gmail account you can use their + operator on your address when you want subscribe to something.

For example if your address is abcd_xyz@gmail.com and you want to signup to BritBox. When you complete the subscription process on the BritBox site you tell BritBox your email address is abcd_xyz+britbox@gmail.com. You'll still get your email(s) as expected but if any come from anyone other than BritBox you'll know the source of the leak and there's no limit to the number of times you can do this.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

Townman — Sat, 28 May 2022 10:28:06 GMT

@Mook - that has to be one of the most helpful posts ever!! It makes the use of Gmail so much more viable...

Would be interesting to know if similar exists for outlook.com?

Building on your guidance...

can one also send email as abcd_xyz+britbox@gmail.com ?
if one replies to an inbound mail sent to abcd_xyz+britbox@gmail.com does that appear to come from abcd_xyz+britbox@gmail.com or simply abcd_xyz@gmail.com

I use a unique email address for every party I engage with coupled with the Plusnet CATCHALL facility. It works well, until it comes to replying or wanting to send using that email address. Webmail very tidily supports IDENTITIES which do not disclose the real email address, however Outlook sends as the real mailbox address ON BEHALF of the unique address.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

Mook — Sat, 28 May 2022 10:44:01 GMT

@Townman - I see no reason why you can't send it's just a case of having a client that would support it. I use Mac mail but see an obvious way to do it, maybe it's possible their Web UI. Also, when you reply to your +XYZ that's where it comes from.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

Townman — Sat, 28 May 2022 10:46:22 GMT

Should that read "...but do not see an obvious way..." ?

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

RobPN — Sat, 28 May 2022 11:06:39 GMT

@Townman wrote:

@Mook - that has to be one of the most helpful posts ever!! It makes the use of Gmail so much more viable...

I agree. I've been considering starting to change my email addresses after realising that PN no longer allow email only accounts. That would be to prepare myself for moving from PN after almost 20 years of satisfactory service following the recent announcements about email, FTTP shenanigans, and phone services, even though my landline is presently on copper with BT. Along with many others, I've waited patiently for the FTTP product to become 'official' and then we get a half-baked 'soft-launch' which is still not the final product, so the waiting continues.

I use a unique email address for every party I engage with coupled with the Plusnet CATCHALL facility. It works well, until it comes to replying or wanting to send using that email address. Webmail very tidily supports IDENTITIES which do not disclose the real email address, however Outlook sends as the real mailbox address ON BEHALF of the unique address.

I do similar @Townman , but never use Webmail. Using Thunderbird, if I really need to use one of those addresses to send I just add it as an Identity before replying, then when I hit reply the Identity is selected automatically. That works for me because I don't often use those addresses for sending so relatively few Identities need to be created, and rather than set up a complete new Identity each time I often edit one which has been used for a previous 'one-off', although YMMV.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

Kwak — Tue, 31 May 2022 12:24:51 GMT

So nobody seems to know

Well I find their webmail clunky (and unless it's improved it could be very slow). IMAP in thunderbird is nice and fast.

The problem with POP3 is of course you don't see if anything nice is accidentally in the spam folder, though pop3 has lots of other advantages in a client like Thunderbird, but it's possible to use BOTH, like just on demand connect the IMAP account every few days to "check".

Given the imap is directly bolted into plusnets email system it would be very possible surely for it to be also linked to their spam training system, it's IMHO (not to be confused with IMAP 😜) a very obvious thing to do, as of course the only reason why most people using the system would move things in and out of a spam folder is due to it's spamminess ... or not.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

Townman — Tue, 31 May 2022 15:31:22 GMT

All depends on your spam settings in the user control panel under "manage my mail". The Plusnet spam service will do exactly what you ask ... if YOU set up the options for it to do so.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

greygit — Thu, 02 Jun 2022 22:50:41 GMT

Exactly when did Google implement this?

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

Townman — Sat, 18 Jun 2022 19:02:58 GMT

@Townman wrote:

if one replies to an inbound mail sent to abcd_xyz+britbox@gmail.com does that appear to come from abcd_xyz+britbox@gmail.com or simply abcd_xyz@gmail.com

I finally got around to doing some testing in this space. I sent an email to me+fred@gmail.com and sure enough inbox reported that it was sent to me+fred@gmail.com - I did a reply from the Gmail web client, but could not find a means to stop the reply coming from (disclosing) the primary email address. Responses disclosed (shared) me@gmail.com

Such great potential dashed in the detail - well that's Google all over for you!!

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

greygit — Sat, 18 Jun 2022 22:59:02 GMT

The google solution isn't (sic. a solution) if you look at it critically. The primary mail address is there in plain text (in the plain-text SMTP headers). The stuff before the '+' character can be easily removed. The primary gmail address could be construed/argued as being 'personally identifiable'.

Perhaps there's more, as the headers returned from Plusnet servers in NDR's are very obviously edited/redacted versions.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

Townman — Sun, 19 Jun 2022 13:04:25 GMT

Having read your response twice I discern possible confusion of purpose here. There are two considerations here in using an alias (or creating a faux catchall).

1. Simply to facilitate an unlimited number of aliases without needing to do so explicitly, do as to give individual organisations unique email addresses.

2. To keep hidden one’ real email address.

Depending on how implemented aliases can do the above to a greater or lesser extent. Gmail being Google expect it to be to the lesser extent - full disclosure of the real email address without the bother of digging into message headers.

Re: Imap and spam filter training query

greygit — Sun, 19 Jun 2022 21:42:29 GMT

"Gmail being Google expect it to be to the lesser extent"

Yes. Which is why I previously asked another contributor as to when Google implemented their version. Do you know? I was unaware that they had gone down this chosen path.

You may or may not know; I don't.

Is it related to the various problems of getting e-mails to g-mail accounts? I dunno, but perhaps having a date on when Google implemented their version of an alias might be useful in excluding them (or not) from the problems of e-mailing g-mail accounts. Putting a date (even a rough date) to the start of a problem is part of troubleshooting methodology (or part of change control procedures). The 'problem' for me started some time (let's say at least six months ago) before I popped up here. And the problem (as I see it) is not restricted to mailing g-mail accounts.

First 'odd' NDR that I still have stored was received back to November 2021.

What problems did PN have with e-mail back then? That's a start point,.