topic Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load in Broadband

Packet Loss and High Latency under load

jackjohnsonuk — Tue, 17 Jan 2023 22:26:53 GMT

Hi All,

We've just moved house, and since moving I seem to be experiencing packet loss and high latency when the networks under load.

My setups a little different in that my plusnet "router" is set up in modem mode, with a separate box running pfsense and operating as my router. I've run some diagnostics this end, and I can't find any issues on the router, and it was working without issue prior to us moving. This leads me to assume it can only be the line into the new property. Has anyone got any ideas how I can test those beyond running something like mtr utility to log packets?

Any suggestions would be appreciated

Many thanks

Jack

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

Gandalf — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 16:42:02 GMT

Just had a look at this for you. Testing your line's showing a Bridge Tap and a Loop (Rectified) fault which may likely be the issue. This is normally due to internal phone wiring that's not up to scratch or could be damp. Is your modem plugged into the master telephone socket and do you have any other telephone sockets in your new house?

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

jackjohnsonuk — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 19:51:24 GMT

Thanks for looking into this, Gandalf.

I don't have a Master socket as such, and instead seem to have a split line directly inside the front door with a rat's nest of cables. I haven't delved into the junction box, as didn't want to mess with anything "upstream" of the first socket. I am not connected into this socket, but another one.

Following a test on the line but the PN bot, the PN team have booked an engineer in for early next week, so hopefully he/she will be able to suitably isolate the problem.

I'm not sure where the "consumer" side of the line would be in this install, I know from a friends' saga a few years ago, he ended up with a bill for his wiring not being up to snuff.

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

jab1 — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:06:18 GMT

@jackjohnsonuk As @Gandalf isn't always around - he's not on the Help team any more - do you mind if I jump in?

From that photo, neither of those sockets are the master, so where does the wire into the right-hand box come from? It looks like the previous occupiers have jerry-rigged the wiring, and unless they are piggy-backing on a neighbours line, there must be a master socket somewhere.

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

jackjohnsonuk — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:20:00 GMT

Happy for any help and suggestions.

The wire coming into the top of box on the right leads out the property, to this external junction box labelled "openreach". It then is clipped around the outside of the house, and up to a BT pole.

It's not a "new" house, as the Artex probably gave away, so all sorts could have been going on with it over the years.

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

jab1 — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:33:11 GMT

If that is your first internal connection, and is marked 'BT' it certainly, to my untrained/unqualified eye, could be the 'master' but I certainly doubt it - I've never seen anything like it.

How old is the house?

Just checked, and a fellow Community member who could possibly help isn't on line at the moment, but I'll tag him anyway, in case he pops in later or early tomorrow - @198kHz - any thoughts?

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

jab1 — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:42:15 GMT

@jackjohnsonuk Doing a bit of image searching, that is the master socket, but it must have been installed in prehistoric times - my phone has been in for 40+ years and I had a nice square white box until it was replaced by a 5C/Mk.4 master about 2 years ago.

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

jackjohnsonuk — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 20:49:35 GMT

The house was built about 1930 I would guess based on the construction type etc, so the line could have been realistically been installed at any time.

That first socket doesn't appear to be labelled "BT" so I came to the same conclusion you did on first inspection, but lack of anything else obviously has led me to the assumption that must be.

Looking at the state of the installation, it's entirely possible the fault is in the internal hodgepodge. What I don't know, is how I can affectively isolate my lines, to determine the fault's position without a master socket, or messing with that line splitter. I don't want to waste PN engineer time, or incur an engineer call out charge, if it's just my install that needs cutting out and re-cabling.

The property used to have a second live line to a room at the other end of the property. That seems to have all the signs of a much newer line, as well as having, what I know as, a "master" socket on it. In hindsight, that was probably in a better position, and I should have has PlusNet requisition that line instead of the ancient noisy one I am now on; but I just had to pick a line at random to requisition prior to moving in, so I guess I just got unlucky.

Thanks for trying to help @jab1

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

jab1 — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:01:32 GMT

That could be an old GPO Telephones 'master socket' from the original installation, but it really needs modernising and wiring correctly. Whether this would incur BT charges, I honestly don't know, but if @Gandalf pops back, he is in a better position than me to advise.

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

Gandalf — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:10:27 GMT

Looks like an ancient setup (to my eye)

I would say it’s definitely worth waiting for an engineer to look into this further as I imagine they’d be able to tidy things up and provide a more modern master socket. We don’t charge for engineer call-outs when investigating faults, so there shouldn’t be any worry there.

Let us know how it goes.

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

jab1 — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:12:15 GMT

@Gandalf Would a rewire incur the £160 charge?

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

Baldrick1 — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:33:24 GMT

@jackjohnsonuk

It might be worth considering whether you need all this extension wiring. I no longer use any of mine so have disconnected it. My filtered master socket is connected to the hub and a wireless DECT phone base unit. I have slave handsets sat in their chargers where I need extensions.

I would expect the engineer to fit a new master socket without you being charged. Unless you have the DIY skills, as well as being neater it could end up cheaper than getting your current rats nest of internal extensions sorted.

If you have the DIY skills then in my opinion they would be better employed installing CAT 5e Ethernet cable in place of the extensions.

It looks like at present your extensions are being star connected upstream of the socket used for your hub, which may be introducing the detected bridge tap.

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

Gandalf — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 21:37:43 GMT

Unless we’ve ordered an internal shift/master socket relocation, no we won’t charge for the call-out even if the engineer does the same work as part of the fault.

Generally engineers don’t have time to simply move a master socket within the time they have allocated to them for a fault investigation, but should still be able to investigate the problem as there’s a definite fault.

@jackjohnsonuk - was an Openreach engineer booked? If the timeslot was 8 to 1 or 1 to 6, it’d be Openreach.

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

jackjohnsonuk — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 22:26:11 GMT

Thank you all for your assistance with this.

@Baldrick1 - I'm happy to ditch all the superfluous cables; I only need one supply cable to my modem, I have no other use for wasted internal cabling. Relaying the internal wiring doesn't bother more, I was an electrician, followed by an electrical & electronics engineer in a previous life; I just want a clean line to the modem and subsequent server stack, from there I can distribute via newly installed internal cat 5e/6 cabling as you suggest.

@Gandalf Yes, the appointment was an 8-1 slot, so based on your reply, it sounds likely it'll be an Openreach engineer.

I wonder if it might be easier/quicker if the line is changed from the old wiring/line, to the new wiring/line feeding the second point at the back of the property, which was previously being operated as a separate business. I assumed this could either be done physically, or via reassignment on the systems, but I'm not sure if this s even an option? It would abandon all the old, likely problematic wiring, and use what looks like a new line with a more modern master socket on it. Although in practice that sounds easy, I don't know if that would be possible within PN/Openreach process'

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

Baldrick1 — Thu, 19 Jan 2023 22:48:52 GMT

@jackjohnsonuk

I would have tea and choccy biscuits on hand, tell the BT engineer that you no longer need any extensions and whilst fitting a proper master socket (hopefully filtered) could they please fit it in a more convenient location.

If you don’t ask, you don’t get.

Whilst moving to the other line sounds easy I would put money on such an action turning in to a nightmare with the engineer who comes not being qualified to swap lines over. However, if you don’t ask….

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

Townman — Mon, 23 Jan 2023 21:12:28 GMT

One of my referrals recently had a fault call out involving a lot of old wiring (NOT TWISTED PAIR) to a not current standard master socket.

The BT OR engineer said lead-in needed to be replaced. Nice packet of biscuits and "would it be easier if you just put a hole through the wall and put it over there..." got the fault fixed with a new master socket in a much more convenient place.

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

jackjohnsonuk — Tue, 24 Jan 2023 11:33:31 GMT

Thanks all for the suggestions.

The OR engineer who turned up was very helpful, and open to swapping the lines over for me. He didn't even want a hot drink or the biscuit selection I'd prepared.

All seemed well on the new line yesterday, and tested out fine initially, but as of last night pfsense is back to showing Packet Loss and High Latency. With a new line connected, and now the PN router connected directly into a master socket, it must be something outside the property. The Packet loss and latency log errors seems not as regular though, but the only thing I can think it's an issue in the cabinet or the telecoms pole?

Any other suggestions?

Many thanks all

Jack

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

Townman — Tue, 24 Jan 2023 11:50:00 GMT

Another engineer visit.

Unfortunately when there is something as glaringly bad as the wiring you showed, it is understandable to consider that is the sole location of issues. This is a helpful step in the right direction. In the case I noted above, it took two engineer visits ... since when I have heard nothing from the referral!

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

jackjohnsonuk — Tue, 24 Jan 2023 17:50:49 GMT

I just tried booking another OR Engineer visit, but PN Technical Support advised me that when a new line is connected, the line can take 3 days to stabilise in what they call a “monitoring window”.

I'll give it a few more days and see if the issue resolve itself, if not, I'll try to book another visit in then. I'd be interested to know if the line's still showing the Bridge Tap and a Loop (Rectified) fault that @Gandalf advised me of, or if that was indeed the old wiring causing that particular issue.

I'll keep you all posted, and thanks again for everyone's help so far.

Re: Packet Loss and High Latency under load

rovingclimber — Tue, 24 Jan 2023 18:01:54 GMT

Another quick suggestion as you're using pfSense ...
Are you using traffic shaping / CoDel? If so have you remembered to modify the up/down queue bandwidth since moving?

If you're not using traffic shaping ... definitely advise taking a look once you get any physical connection issues sorted ... makes a big difference to latency under load.