topic Re: Line Banding in Broadband

Line Banding

pvmb — Mon, 17 Jan 2022 18:33:34 GMT

Is my line currently Banded?

https://community.plus.net/t5/Library/Broadband-Faults-Guide-Banding-Guide/ba-p/1322790

Reading here states that banding is applied to lines that drop connection too often in a given period. But, AFAICS, my line doesn't suffer frequent drops. Yet it is now operating at a maximum of 14335 kbps, 7.7 dB download rather than the default 6 dB. Rebooting doesn't change this. From the table, this seems to correspond to banding WBC 7M - 14M (7168kbps to 14336kbps).

"Banding is applied when your connection drops on a regular basis. The banding slows your connection by restricting your connection rate. For example, if your connection drops 10 times within 24 hours, you may notice that your connection is banded to WBC 4M-9M this means your connection will only be allowed to synchronise at a maximum of 9728Kbps."

I am wondering now whether this banding is 'institutional' rather than anything to do with any Broadband faults on my line (of which there is no sign). That is, as Openworld say the operational range of my ADSL line is a maximum of 12 Mbps (was much higher in the past!) it is nowadays banded to make it so, for operational reasons rather than because of Broadband faults on my line.

Any thoughts?

Re: Line Banding

Gandalf — Tue, 18 Jan 2022 09:28:52 GMT

Thanks for your post @pvmb

I'm sorry to see you're having speed issues.

I've tested your line today and it is indeed banded at ~14mbps, the full profile being: "WBC 7M - 14M No delay (INP 0) 6dB Downstream, UC No delay (INP 0) 6dB Upstream (ADSL2+)"

As you say, your connection's stable and our tests aren't showing any issues, so I've removed the banding now.

Could you check your speed again?

I wouldn't say though that either Plusnet or our suppliers are intentionally placing a banding on your line as that's done automatically by the dynamic line management (DLM) software at the exchange.

It's possible that there was or is an underlying issue somewhere, which our tests aren't picking up and aren't having a noticeable impact on your connection, so I'd keep an eye on things and let us know how it goes.

Re: Line Banding

pvmb — Wed, 19 Jan 2022 10:08:41 GMT

Thanks Anoush,

Line banding successfully removed yesterday, accompanied by increase in speed to 15 kbps, 3.0 dB. Line working OK.

Guess what? 🙂

5.30am this morning speed reverted:

13835 kbps, 9.0 dB
1183 kbps, 6.8 dB

This appears identical to what happened last time after banding was removed (including time of reversion).

For whatever reason the DLM is simply not allowing my line to operate unbanded at the standard 6 dB download rate.

Apart from repeated disconnections (as per that Plusnet diagnostic link *) what else causes banding to be put on a line?

* "Banding is applied when your connection drops on a regular basis."

Re: Line Banding

Gandalf — Wed, 19 Jan 2022 16:51:43 GMT

Thanks for getting back to me @pvmb

That'll likely be done due to an underlying issue, potentially noise on the line somewhere, because the SNR is the signal to noise ratio, which means that if the greater the figure, it'll be combatting some form of noise or interference.

Do you have a home phone handset you can plug into the test socket and carry out a quiet line test by dialling 17070?

Re: Line Banding

pvmb — Thu, 20 Jan 2022 21:09:45 GMT

No noise on line in audible spectrum, at least not in my audible spectrum. Noise more likely in the RF range, IMO.
Such as that strong signal around 1.6 MHz. There during the day but gone at night, so can't be from LED streetlights.

Seems to have been another drop around 5.30 am this morning, leading to a slight speed increase back to highest allowed by WBC 7M - 14M banding level:

Down:1435 kbps, 7.7 dB
Up:1199 kbps, 6.6 db
ES/hour (Down/Up): 60.5/0
Interleave (Down/Up): 1/0

I do hope I don't have to get up at 5am in order to find out what is going on.

Here are some historical statistics, The Good, the Bad and the Ugly:

22 May 2017 09:07

Up: 1245 kbps, 6.1 dB
Down: 18529 kbps, 2.3 dB

Interleave (Down/Up): 96/0
ES/hour (Down/Up): 27.4/0
-------------------------

14 Mar 2019 09:36

Up: 1255 kbps, 5.9 dB
Down: 15613 kbps, 5.9 dB

Interleave (Down/Up): 1/0
ES/hour (Down/Up): 43.3/0
--------------------------

19 Jan 2022

Up: 1183 kbps, 6.7 dB
Down: 13835 kbps, 9.0 dB

Interleave (Down/Up): 1/0
ES/hour (Down/Up): 23.0/0
--------------------------

I notice, when I had a good download speed in the past, I also had an Interleave (Down/Up): 96/0
Whereas, more recently I always seem to have an Interleave (Down/Up): 1/0

I wonder if Interleave could improve matters?

Re: Line Banding

LaurenB — Fri, 21 Jan 2022 12:22:49 GMT

Hiya @pvmb, thanks for getting back to us. I'm sorry for the issues with your line.

I have added interleaving back on for you, to see if this makes any improvements at all. Can you let us know how it goes?

Re: Line Banding

pvmb — Sat, 22 Jan 2022 12:48:52 GMT

Thanks Lauren,

Unfortunately Interleaving seems to have had confusing effects. There appear to be less reported errors on Download, but the Download is still banded exactly as before - with the added bonus that the Upload now seems banded as well! Currently:

Up: 888 kbps, 16 dB
Down: 14335 kbps, 7.5 dB

Interleave (Down/Up): 96/0

ES/hour (Down/Up) 3.00/0

Why the Upload, previously operating at normal speeds with SNRM of 6 dB, should now be downgraded following Interleaving being switched on, I have not the slightest notion.

Apart from the obvious reduction in Download errors, the Download speed remains at the very top end of the highest Banding, yet still the circuit seems unable to operate unbanded.

Saw this thread from 2016: https://community.plus.net/t5/ADSL-Broadband/Line-banding-frustration/td-p/1328296

In particular this (unanswered) post:

aesmith
‎20-04-2016 3:39 PM

>> "Indicative Line Quality: R"

Out of interest, which parameter(s) put it into Red? Third party information suggests that it would need MTBE of 5 or less, and/or MTBR of 8640 or less.

If correct, "MTBE of 5" Seconds would equate to an average of 12 Errors/Min or 720 Errors/Hour or more. This appears much higher than I was getting. The highest I can see looking back was something over 100 Errors/Hour. Although I do not normally run DSLstats all day.

I should add that that strong apparent 1.6 Mhz signal is currently not in evidence on the bitmap.

None the wiser...

Re: Line Banding

adam945 — Sat, 22 Jan 2022 15:46:44 GMT

Thanks a lot for getting back to us @pvmb

I'm sorry to hear that you're still having issues with your connection. The next stage in diagnosing the cause of these issues would be to raise the matter with Openreach, and have an engineer look into what's going on.

I've just created a ticket on the account, which we'd like you to respond to, confirming your availability. You can respond to it either via your online Member Centre, or via SMS.

One of the knock on effects of having interleaving turned on is what you're seeing with the upload speed, which appears to be banded. Engineers can turn this on and off should they feel it'll provide an overall better connection. Give us a nudge once you've responded to the open ticket and we'll get the fault raised.

Re: Line Banding

Townman — Sun, 23 Jan 2022 17:27:48 GMT

For issues such as this there is good merit in setting up 24x7 router monitoring. Router Stats - the version for the BTHH5a works well with the PN Hub One. See the link below.

Re: Line Banding

pvmb — Sun, 23 Jan 2022 22:22:23 GMT

@adam945 wrote:

Thanks a lot for getting back to us @pvmb

I'm sorry to hear that you're still having issues with your connection. The next stage in diagnosing the cause of these issues would be to raise the matter with Openreach, and have an engineer look into what's going on.

I've just created a ticket on the account, which we'd like you to respond to, confirming your availability. You can respond to it either via your online Member Centre, or via SMS.

One of the knock on effects of having interleaving turned on is what you're seeing with the upload speed, which appears to be banded.

Funny. It wasn't one of the knock on effects in 2017:

22 May 2017 09:07

Up: 1245 kbps, 6.1 dB
Down: 18529 kbps, 2.3 dB

Interleave (Down/Up): 96/0
ES/hour (Down/Up): 27.4/0
-------------------------

I'll look into the ticket etc. I hope, if the engineer finds nothing, there will not be any call out charge?

Re: Line Banding

Anoush — Sun, 23 Jan 2022 23:14:01 GMT

Interleaving doesn’t band the upload speed per se, but it can though not always restrict it to an unusually round figure of 888kbps or thereabouts and has been the case since I’ve started working here in 2014.

We haven’t charged an engineer fee for a fault investigation in about 9 months, so I wouldn’t worry about that as it’s not something we do anymore.

Re: Line Banding

pvmb — Mon, 21 Feb 2022 14:35:30 GMT

@adam945 wrote:

Thanks a lot for getting back to us @pvmb

I'm sorry to hear that you're still having issues with your connection. The next stage in diagnosing the cause of these issues would be to raise the matter with Openreach, and have an engineer look into what's going on.

I've just created a ticket on the account, which we'd like you to respond to, confirming your availability. You can respond to it either via your online Member Centre, or via SMS.

One of the knock on effects of having interleaving turned on is what you're seeing with the upload speed, which appears to be banded. Engineers can turn this on and off should they feel it'll provide an overall better connection. Give us a nudge once you've responded to the open ticket and we'll get the fault raised.

Sorry I didn't get back to you via the ticket at the time, it was automatically closed after 14 days. However I am available now if this can be reopened for an engineer visit or whatever.

TIA

Re: Line Banding

Gandalf — Mon, 21 Feb 2022 17:58:08 GMT

Hi @pvmb

No problem, I've created a new ticket for you now Here.

If you can post back once you've responded, I'll make sure we book the engineer as soon as we can.

Re: Line Banding

pvmb — Mon, 21 Feb 2022 19:26:55 GMT

OK, I have completed ticket. Thanks.

Apart from Thursdays I should be alright for most days, hope they can let me know when they are coming or at least which day.

pvmb

Re: Line Banding

LaurenB — Tue, 22 Feb 2022 17:13:35 GMT

Hiya @pvmb, thanks for replying to the ticket

It looks like a member of our faults team have beat me to it and already picked this up, booking in your engineer. They've updated the ticket with the details for you.

Let us know how this goes!

Re: Line Banding

pvmb — Sat, 26 Feb 2022 17:32:36 GMT

Openreach man came yesterday. He didn't seem that well informed about reason for visit or who was responsible for call out (this is always the problem where multiple organisations are involved - but that's politics!). He seemed familiar with broadband but unfamiliar with the term "Banded" which I was relying on (too much?) to explain the issue. I should have boned up on the matter beforehand, as it was the discussion got bogged down over the simplistic issue of "speed".

His general view aligned with my opinion that, with the growth of BB, there was just so much cross-talk etc. that things were not going to be as they once were. Fibre to the premises being the only real answer.

His overall opinion: The line is working OK, you are getting nearly 15 Mbps, the current maximum forecast for the line is 15 Mbps. So as far as Openreach are concerned there isn't an issue. He did suggest I could look into getting Interleave removed.

My own experience locally over the years is of ongoing general deterioration in the entire RF broadcast spectrum - everything from AM Medium Wave to DTV on Band IV/V.

Should we then all simply get used to ADSL 2+ continuing to degrade over the years until FTTP arrives?

My ADSL was up continuously for 27 days, it did reconnect for some reason a day or so before the engineers visit (OR testing?) and obviously again on Friday. Currently errors on the line are mainly noticeable by their absence, but it remains banded at 888/14,335 (the max for that band, WBC 7M - 14M) with SNRM of 16.1dB/7.4 dB

PS. The errors have gone up again - just noticed, looking at the Bitloading map, that RF signal has reappeared - 3.15p Saturday afternoon.

Trouble is, DSLstats seems buggy wrt reporting Tones/Frequencies. The DSLstats plot scale Tone number and DSLstats reported Tone numbers don't even match on Custom and ADSL 2+ settings, only on ADSL(2) and VDSL2! So I get different results for the frequency depending on whether I use Custom (my usual), ADSL 2+ or ADSL(2) Tone Range settings:

Custom: 344, 1483.5 kHz
ADSL2+: 447, 1927.6875 kHz
ADSL (2): 386, 1664.625 kHz
VDSL2: 385, 1660.3125 kHz

So, going with the ADSL (2) and VDSL2 results, I guess Tone number 386, 1664.625 kHz is the best estimate. Outside the range of my AM receiver. Anyone have a short wave receiver handy?

The trouble is, this frequency isn't covered by Internet SW information sites as it is classed as MW. And officially broadcast MW ends just over 1600 kHz.

http://mediumwave.de/

"1610 - 1700 pirate stations from the Netherlands
1610 - 1800 pirate stations from Greece and the Balcan (some also operate in the regular MW range)
(powers reach from Milliwatts up to 25 KW. A Greek radio amateur told me that there are at least 10 stations with more than 5 kW)"

I still cannot be certain this rogue signal is or is not the cause of the problems.

Re: Line Banding

SammyM — Sun, 27 Feb 2022 09:08:43 GMT

Looking at the line @pvmb, it has stabilised since the visit and the speed is within the estimates provided in your contractual email.

It is still showing errors on the upstream, are you still using the original router we sent you?

Re: Line Banding

pvmb — Tue, 01 Mar 2022 17:02:31 GMT

I see no evidence that it has since "stabilised", it is performing identically as before. Welded to the very top speed allowed in the WBC 7M - 14M banding (7168 kbps to 14336 kbps) with seemingly very low errors.

Up speed: 888 kbps, Up SNRM: 15.2
Down speed: 14335 kbps, Down SNRM: 7.4 dB

So why isn't it simply in the default ADSL 2+ WBC 160k - 24M, Unbanded (up to 24576kbps) - whatever the actual speed attained?

Or do we now simply have to accept that the general UK situation wrt ADSL is such that on a pretty average phone line with no obvious problem and entirely normal loop losses, the previous default, normal ADSL 2+ service (which once upon a time supplied me with a stable 18Mbps) can no longer be expected to be available, only a banded and restricted version?

Re: Line Banding

SammyM — Wed, 02 Mar 2022 11:58:33 GMT

Thanks for getting back to me @pvmb, I appreciate it.

When a contract is taken as a provider we will always provide an estimate speed range for your line and should it drop below this speed, we will work hard with our suppliers to resolve this.

I can see that we advised that we quoted your estimates speeds of 4Mbps to 14Mbps shown here.

It is great that your speed was higher previously and your line achieved this, but as it is current in line with what we expected for your line and with what our supplier quoted it can handler, there isn't anything we can do to increase it.

I have checked your connection and as you can see from the image below, it had dropped for a number of hours. I'd like to check if this was due to anyone tuning the router off during that time?

Re: Line Banding

RealAleMadrid — Wed, 02 Mar 2022 12:41:29 GMT

@SammyM Your response to @pvmb is unhelpful and to be honest disappointing. You have not answered the question of why the line is banded, but instead taken the easy way out by saying the line is within speed estimates, which are somewhat arbitrary figures. My own speed estimates on fibre extra are 64-72 Mbps and I expect to get speeds well above that as I have a full 80Mbps sync speed. As these speeds are estimates it is perfectly reasonable to expect higher actual speeds.

So as pvmb says why isn't the line on the full ADSL2+ profile WBC 160k - 24M, unless there are line faults there should be no reason for the line to be banded?