topic Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill in Broadband

BT Line Box attached to window sill

plusmouse — Sun, 20 Jun 2021 12:34:53 GMT

Hi All - Looking for some sound advice please if anyone has had similar issues. To cut a long story short, our council house is due to have windows replaced in a few weeks time. Our phone/broadband line box is screwed to the inside of the back window frame and the wire inside exits the outside, up the wall and along to the telephone pole. 😒

I can see this causing a problem for the window fitters and I don`t want to be allowing them (non BT Openreach engineers) to be unscrewing this box and trying to fit a new window frame in while the wire may be old or indeed, get damaged by their working around it. The line box has been in this location for goodness knows how long and now possibly going to cause a problem if either (a) they are not actually allowed to tamper with it? and (b) if they do, who`s then responsible for any fault they may cause?

I may be making a mountain out of a molehill here but I feel worried that due to it`s location, it`s going to be problematic. I found a few online stories regarding the same issues and thought I should ask the same question here incase i need to be calling Plusnet. I`m hoping not. Thanks for any feedback you can give.

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

Baldrick1 — Sun, 20 Jun 2021 13:02:50 GMT

@plusmouse

I bet that this is not the first time that the window fitters have come across this problem. Is it still a council house and the windows being replaced by the council's contractors? If so I would assume that it's the council's responsibility if they cause any damage. There's nothing to stop the fitters taking the top off the box and removing it from the frame but they are not supposed to touch the internal connections. If this causes damage then if it were me I would complain to the council and get them to call Openreach out and pay their fee.

.If the property is yours and it is you who are getting the windows changed then I'm afraid that it's up to you how you handle the cost of any repairs, should they be necessary. If you need it rewiring by Openreach then you will need to arrange it through Plusnet.

I would leave it and see if any damage is caused. If the fitters remove wires and refit them so that it works after they finish the job then I suggest that you find something else to do in another room whilst they get on with it. Ignorance is bliss!

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

plusmouse — Sun, 20 Jun 2021 13:53:43 GMT

Thanks for your reply Baldrick1. I`ve done some googling around since posting and your correct that window fitters will no doubt have come across this issue before and yes, the house is still council owned, we rent it. The master socket is a Mk3 and the (grey two core wire) I can see on the outside is pretty loose (not attached properly to the wall outside as it`s years old) but works fine. I`m no expert on these things hence my anxieties over it but all I can do is speak with them before the window in question is removed and that they know what they are doing. Covid restrictions doesn`t allow us to be in the room the men will be working in so I`ll have to trust they will unscrew the master socket, somehow work around the issues the wire inside might cause and HOPE they can just refit the master socket again with no harm done.

I`ll be calling their office tomorrow to put this very question to their commercial admin person and ask that a supervisor can call beforehand to reassure us. If they can`t, they won`t be touching the window! 😎

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

bmc — Sun, 20 Jun 2021 14:28:05 GMT

@plusmouse

Given the probable age of the OpenReach wiring you could contact PlusNet to see what the chances are of getting OR to replace the existing connection (probably via a hole drilled in the wall).

Brian

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

Baldrick1 — Sun, 20 Jun 2021 14:39:43 GMT

@bmc

You have missed out the important bit: ‘without charge’. No doubt Plusnet can get OR out but I’m assuming that @plusmouse doesn’t want a big bill for the job.

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

Townman — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 07:44:06 GMT

Charges for this sort of work is covered here - https://www.plus.net/help/legal/plusnet-price-guide-for-residential-products/#phone-converting-your-line-and-other-set-up-charges

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

adam945 — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 09:39:17 GMT

Good morning @plusmouse

This is something we'd be able to raise with Openreach on your behalf, and is called a Master Socket Relocation. An engineer would come out and discuss the problem with you before relocating the master socket and wiring that leads to it.

This would come at a cost of £160.00 which we'd have to take prior to booking this in. If you'd like to go ahead with this, please contact our Provisioning Team.

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

plusmouse — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 11:11:50 GMT

Thankyou so much everyone for your replies, I appreciate the feedback. @adam945 - Thankyou for this information and the costing. I have spoken to the window company this morning on the phone and they gave their usual reassurance that when they remove the window frame, they will take care not to damage the master socket that they will have to unscrew from the frame and leave it (in her words) hanging and then reattach it to the same frame once done. 🤔

That all sounds fine, but I`m in that `what if` frame of mind that if something was to go wrong, who is then responsible for the damage or indeed, the OR £160 cost for relocating the master socket and line? Or any repair? I imagine they would be or the council, but worse case scenario for me would be the time it might take to sort any issues and who is at fault. It certainly wouldn`t be me!

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

Townman — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 11:23:24 GMT

Legally you are the subscriber so you are liable. You might have remedies against the persons commissioning the work. It’s unlikely that you have any remedies against their contractors.

Certainly Plusnet will not pass any charges on to third parties.

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

bmc — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 12:27:05 GMT

@plusmouse

I know a PlusNet staff member has replied but I would get them to speak to OpenReach and see what their policy is in these matters.

After all, it probably would have been OR who placed the master socket on the window so is it not their job to move it now the window needs replacement.

And, as previously mentioned, this can't be the first time OR will have been asked about this so they hopefully they may have a policy.

Brian

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

plusmouse — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 13:30:27 GMT

My worry is that things `might` go wrong and if I find my phone line and internet are down after the window is replaced, (I can check that the phone line is humming at least) to show there is a live connection afterwards before they get into their van and leave. Paying OR £160 to relocate the master socket at some point in the future would be an option for me, but the problem is the window is being replaced on the 1st July! So I feel a bit rushed.

@bmc - I take your point bmc and I agree that OR would have originally put the socket where it is located many years ago before we moved in which was around 35+ years ago! I`ve had a few OR engineers out just to check the line and then add a new face place to the old backplate so I was able to connect an internet cable to the socket as well as a phone line to prevent using those small devices that allow extra cables to connect to one socket.

It would be good to know I could contact someone should things go pear-shaped and know that the fault is not mine to put right at cost as it`s not me doing the damage? But I realize that could be a can of worms legally of who is or who isn`t liable should that actually happen.

@Townman: You might have remedies against the persons commissioning the work.

Will that will be the council Townman who are contracting this company to replace the windows?

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

bmc — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:04:24 GMT

@plusmouse

I suspect you may have left it too late but surely the time to re-locate the Master socket would be before the new windows are installed. That way nothing can go wrong, you potentially can get the socket in a better location and no holes need be drilled in the new window frame. I appreciate there probably would be a £160 cost to this.

If you can hear the line "humming" could this be a potential fault. One thing PlusNet do when diagnostics on a fault is to request you run a Silent Line test (or whatever it's called!). If you hear a noise then there's a potential fault. Look on the PlusNet portal under Troubleshooting for more details.

Brian

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

198kHz — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:11:21 GMT

@bmc wrote:

If you can hear the line "humming" could this be a potential fault.

In the context in which it was written -

I think the OP meant listening for dial tone.

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

Gandalf — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:33:37 GMT

Hi @plusmouse

My thoughts are, if something goes wrong and the Openreach equipment is damaged within your property, we can raise a fault with Openreach to arrange an engineer visit to put it right, and we'd pass on a call out charge of £65 to you.

You could then try to get a reimbursement off the company, who's arranging the window work, if you're going through the council I'd imagine it'd be them, but it may be more of a question to ask the council something along the lines of "If the contractors damage my property, do I claim off you or the contractors?"

If there's a good chance nothing will go wrong, you could take the above approach. Depending on the council's/contractors response or if the window replacement work isn't possible without likely damaging the telephone socket/wiring, then arranging a master socket relocation for £160 would seem to be the way to go.

I hope this helps.

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

Townman — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:43:16 GMT

@plusmouse wrote:

@Townman: You might have remedies against the persons commissioning the work.

Will that will be the council Townman who are contracting this company to replace the windows?

You really ought to write to the council on this matter. I suspect that there are more than a few legal niceties here...

The Council is commissioning the work
They have a duty of care to due the work, with care in a professional manner
If they damage your personal property, it would be reasonable to argue that they have a liability to cover the cost of rectifying that damage
You have advised them that there is a utility service point in the way of their work
Technically neither they nor you may interfere with the BT circuit termination
It is a mute point who is responsible for addressing the issue to prevent damage to the BT circuit - the council doing work on THEIR PROPERTY or you as the subscriber to the service, as it will be you who (as far as Plusnet / BT is concerned) is responsible for damage to the service

See the T&Cs ... https://www.plus.net/help/legal/terms/#phoneTerms

4.1. We'll carry out standard installations of phone lines for the appropriate connection charge as out in the Price Guide. These connection charges do not cover extensive new construction works (such as external work). Also for work such as installing or moving a phone socket additional charges as set out in the Price Guide may be payable. However, we'll always aim to advise you of these charges before any work is undertaken.

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

Strat — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 14:48:02 GMT

A bit of info from Openreach which may help.

If equipment is in your way we can help

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

plusmouse — Mon, 21 Jun 2021 17:19:39 GMT

Many thanks everyone. I do have the direct telephone number for the senior housing manager at my council although I didn`t think I`d need to involve him or the council to be honest. If I just wear blinkers here and allow the workmen to go ahead having pointed out the issue to their site supervisor beforehand, they make you feel as if they can carry on and everything will be OK. They say the usual - "Oh don`t worry, we`ve come across this before"... That`s what I`m hoping will happen but I suppose I`m walking on eggshells until the window is removed, they `set aside` the master socket once they unscrew it from the window frame and reattach it again.

The `humming` sound I mentioned earlier was indeed the dial tone! Sorry for the confusion! I should have worded that better. The line is fine. I`m prepared to pay for any fault that`s caused (hopefully not) but then I`d need to chase up the compensation and not feel as if I`m the one being victimized through not causing the fault myself, although it does seem that`s how they would view it. Them saying don`t worry is all very well.

@Strat: Thankyou for the OR link. 👍

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

Townman — Tue, 22 Jun 2021 06:17:51 GMT

For clarity (us and your contractors) - does the WIRE pass through the window frame?

It would be one thing for the wire to not pass through the window frame with the box screwed tot he window sill, but something quite different if the wire does (as many old installations do) pass through the window frame.

If the wire passes through the window frame, at best it is not going to be removed without disconnecting the box from the line (to pull the wire out of the frame) and technically that is something only BT should do. You then need to examine how the external wire routes to the hole in the frame - is it attached to the frame? Is it pained over? You mentioned that it is not secure externally - is there enough play in the line to allow the wire to be routed differently? How will it re-enter the property? Will the contractor seek to "trap" it between the frame and the wall as the new window is fitted? That might have the risk of abrading the wire.

I suspect that the contractors might not have fully considered how to deal with this situation if the wire passes through the frame and are presuming that the wire enters elsewhere and just the box is attached to the frame.

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

plusmouse — Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:07:35 GMT

Hi Townman. Everything you expressed is correct. I suspect (as I cannot visually see the wire on the inside) is beneath/running under the wooden window sill somehow. I can only see the master socket on the inside as the wiring is not visible from the master socket (which I presume is hidden somewhere inside this wooden sill). I`ve just gone outside and the two core grey wire is actually coming in at the side of the window (where they seal the window frame with that rubbery white stuff). So the wire is allocated to the side and then runs into the master socket from there (which I cannot then see as it`s going directly into the master socket on the inside from there.

I see your main point though regarding how they will remove and then fit a new window in if the wire is actually going through the window frame itself. I don`t think that`s the case here as the wire does seem to go off to the side before it comes into the house. So it may be that all they have to do is unscrew the actual master socket, carefully remove the old window and it`s frame, replace the window frame making sure the wiring is in the same place (off to one side) and reattach the master socket to the wooden frame again.

I will report back once I`ve spoken to someone other than a window fitter.

I intend to get hold of their line manager before any work commences to run him through all this! As you said, they may be underestimating what they need to do and I need to be 100% satisfied before they pull the window out.

Re: BT Line Box attached to window sill

jgb — Tue, 22 Jun 2021 09:29:57 GMT

@plusmouse

Are they actually going to replace the inside wooden sill? Very often they only replace the window frame and the outer sill which it sits on, unless the owner actually asks for a new plastic sill. The inner sill is a separate piece of wood from the window frame etc.

Re the wire from the outside, we had a door and frame replaced and there was no problem with the door bell wire which was routed between the old frame and the brickwork. They just were careful around it and routed it through the same place between the new frame and the brickwork. I suspect it is very common to have wires routed this way.