topic Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it? in My Account/Billing

what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

mdbarber — Mon, 24 Jun 2024 23:50:49 GMT

To cut a long story short my landline and and broadband were up for renewal, due to the price increase i tried to move to a different provider but due to inaccuracies and conflicts of openreach records of my address and plusnets i was unable to do so.

I agreed to a new contract on the 1/4/24 but the original cease date passed and my line went dead, contacting plusnet they said they would fix this but instead started a new account and left me with no service for approx 12 days and i permanently lost my landline.

The hassle this caused with me losing broadband and now having to move to ip service prematurely i can not describe but cost wise in excess of £50.

Contacting them now they refuse to honour the compensation scheme trying to fob me off with £15 as a goodwill gesture whereas under compensation scheme i would be entitled to circa £80.

After spending over an hour today trying to sort this out i was promised a call back from a supervisor before 4:30, needless to say this never happened...

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

Baldrick1 — Tue, 25 Jun 2024 06:59:06 GMT

@mdbarber

You ask 'What is the point of the automatic compensation scheme'? The answer is here: https://www.plus.net/help/legal/automatic-compensation/

The circumstances that you describe do not appear to fit within this description, hence the business system would not automatically trigger compensation.

You talk of a cease date, did you cancel the service or was it a different ISP? Did you sign up to a new contract well before or after this cease date?

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

mdbarber — Tue, 25 Jun 2024 09:10:42 GMT

I was left without service for 12 days due to errors on Plusnets behalf, any thing else is simply poor excuses and no reason to deny compensation.

Reading the terms and conditions of this scheme it appears that it is not "automatic" triggering but an automatic right to compensation, bit vague but in Consumer Regs. which ever interpretation favours me wins.

Things like this are why the legislation needs tightening up and not relying on voluntary schemes written to evade responsibilities with loopholes.

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

corringham — Tue, 25 Jun 2024 09:39:45 GMT

@Baldrick1 wrote:

The circumstances that you describe do not appear to fit within this description,

It could quite possibly fit within either covered situation depending on when the Plusnet contract was renewed in relation to the previously intended migration date.

Delayed Activation...

There shouldn't be a delay for a renewal as the service should remain active - assuming the other ISP never took control of the service, which seems likely to be the case. A delay in activating a renewal (with no service) could arguably be covered.

Total loss of service means:

Broadband service where you’re unable access the internet
Phone service where you’re unable to make or receive any calls, or where the service only works one-way and it should be both

Both of these appear to have been met - no broadband service, and no phone service EVER again (since Plusnet can no longer provide any phone service at all). It could be an administrative fault rather than a technical fault, but loss of service is not necessarily a technical problem.

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

pjmarsh — Tue, 25 Jun 2024 10:42:51 GMT

I'm not sure we have enough information here yet to definitively come to that conclusion @corringham.

The first claim is a little odd as it would be a mismatch on the address between Openreach and the new supplier that may cause problems. What Plusnet have wouldn't really come in to play.

Somehow a cease has been put on the line. Was that by Plusnet at the customers instruction or by another supplier?

If it was for either of these reasons, then it might be possible that that the "total loss of service" clause wouldn't be applicable, since it was intentionally requested to be ceased. If Plusnet could cancel that cease and failed to, then I don't know how that would fit in with it.

For the delayed activation, that would likely only come in if the cease was legitimate and the date confirmed to activate the service was missed. The timescale mentioned above for that aren't too far off what you'd expect for that, so it may not be applicable.

In short, this sounds like an edge case for the automatic compensation scheme, and could go either way depending on the details which we currently aren't privy to.

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

corringham — Tue, 25 Jun 2024 10:51:35 GMT

@pjmarsh wrote:

I'm not sure we have enough information here yet to definitively come to that conclusion

I wasn't stating that it definitely was covered - just that it couldn't be stated to definitely NOT be covered.

In short, this sounds like an edge case for the automatic compensation scheme, and could go either way depending on the details which we currently aren't privy to.

Yep.

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

mdbarber — Tue, 25 Jun 2024 20:27:03 GMT

You sound just like Plusnet customers services,

instead of upholding the spirit of the compensation scheme (to try to offer some reparation when providers screw up and cause the users to lose service or be out of pocket)

instead you will add your own interpretations in to try and evade having the company worth millions be out of pocket by a few quid...

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

pjmarsh — Wed, 26 Jun 2024 07:27:54 GMT

@mdbarber, not at all. If Plusnet have screwed up then the certainly compensation should be due, but from what you have said so far no one here could do anything other than speculate if Plusnet/Openreach have caused if it is of your own making.

All we know from what you have said is that your line has ceased and it has taking around about the standard amount of time to connect you again.

The main query around that is why was a cease put on the line in the first place, and by who. I can think of 3 scenarios that it might happen:

You've told Plusnet you're leaving so they have put it on.
You've talked to Plusnet about other issues around migrating and they've put it on when it shouldn't have been
Another provider has put it on to migrate your services to them, though you've hinted that you couldn't do that due to an address issue.

At some point after the cease order has been placed, you've contacted Plusnet about it. It isn't clear at what point that was. If it was after the cease had gone through, or late on for the cease happening then there wouldn't be anything Plusnet (or any other provider) could do to stop it.

If the line was ceased because of something you've done (1 or 3 above), and it was then too late for Plusnet to do anything about it when you contacted them, then why should they pay you compensation, regardless of if they could afford it or not? If Plusnet have caused this either by ceasing the line (2 above), or by not acting in a reasonable time after being informed that the cease is not longer needed, whilst it still being in there power to cancel the order, then they should pay up.

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

corringham — Wed, 26 Jun 2024 08:26:24 GMT

I think this case highlights the fact that the whole process of migrating to a new provider, regrading a service, or even renewing an existing service is rather more fraught than it should be.

While the general process is generic across all OR based providers, there is a difference in the way different ISPs approach the issues.

Some ISPs take ownership of your connection and do whatever is necessary to resolve whatever problems occur as quickly as possible - whatever the source of the problems.

Some other ISPs just say you did it wrong (you didn't follow the obscure rules precisely enough) - nothing to do with us, but you're locked in to a long contract anyway, so we don't really care.

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

mdbarber — Sat, 29 Jun 2024 15:16:45 GMT

pjmarsh

As even you agreed Plusnet should compensate when they screw up., i shall plot the timeline in a clearer fashion

1. yes plusnet were informed i wanted to leave, that is THEIR procedure and is in the T&Cs agreed date was approx 12th of Apr.

2.there was a discrepancy on the address details between openreach and plusnet which no one had picked up on was holding up/preventing the leaving process, approx 1st apr

3 when contacting them about this they persuaded me to stay with plusnet and agreed a new contract (extention?) sending me a copy of this via email to start 2 apr.

12th Apr my line goes dead, broadband service not returned until 24/25th, land line phone and number is now gone forever...

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

mdbarber — Sat, 29 Jun 2024 15:14:46 GMT

yes, this was part of the problem that plusnet insist on you giving them notice, had they relied on the notification from the other provider this would not have happened.

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

Mav — Sat, 29 Jun 2024 17:49:04 GMT

@mdbarber

Not sure where you got the idea that Plusnet requires you to inform them when changing provider considering such circumstances are lead by the new provider.

It is well documented within these fora that cancelling a Plusnet service when changing providers frequently causes issues including loss of service.

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

Anunnaki — Sat, 29 Jun 2024 18:05:49 GMT

@mdbarber wrote:

12th Apr my line goes dead, ... ... ... land line phone and number is now gone forever...

Why didn't you port your phone number to a third party VoIP provider within 30 days of the cease ?

You could have kept your existing number and still have your house phone (albeit connected via your router rather than the BT socket)?

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

corringham — Mon, 01 Jul 2024 07:59:58 GMT

Not sure where you got the idea that Plusnet requires you to inform them when changing provider considering such circumstances are lead by the new provider.

Quite possibly the T&Cs where it states:

15.1. If you want to end our agreement, unless you're inside the cancellation period set out in paragraph 9, you'll need to give us 14 days' notice

It is well documented within these fora that cancelling a Plusnet service when changing providers frequently causes issues including loss of service.

Visiting these fora isn't something that most people that want to change ISP consider doing.

Designing a system for switching providers that is rather obtuse and often leads to issues is Ofcom's fault. It really should be easier and more intuitive, and not designed to force a period of no service if the mandated procedures are not followed exactly.

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

Baldrick1 — Mon, 01 Jul 2024 12:10:48 GMT

I agree that it could be clearer but the next clause:

15.2. If someone else requests that we end our agreement (for example a provider you're transferring to) we'll accept that notice but will email you, asking you to confirm that this is what you want. If we don't hear from you within 10 working days we'll stop providing your service

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

corringham — Mon, 01 Jul 2024 13:48:26 GMT

@Baldrick1 wrote:

I agree that it could be clearer but the next clause:

15.2. If someone else requests that we end our agreement (for example a provider you're transferring to) we'll accept that notice but will email you, asking you to confirm that this is what you want. If we don't hear from you within 10 working days we'll stop providing your service

But that clause doesn't say that you should ignore the previous clause if you are migrating to another ISP.

Nowhere in the T&Cs does it say that is you are migrating to another ISP you should not contact Plusnet. It isn't surprising things go wrong, as the migration process isn't explained.

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

Mav — Mon, 01 Jul 2024 14:59:43 GMT

I think the actions required are quite clearly laid out here:

Move to a new provider

For most moves you don't need to let us know. Just set everything up with them and they'll tell us when to switch your Plusnet service off.

Moving to Virgin or someone not on the Openreach network? You will need to tell us. Your Plusnet account will only close once your new service has been set up.

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

jgb — Mon, 01 Jul 2024 16:16:21 GMT

@Mav

The extract that you quoted is not quite the full scenario.

Yes, if you move within the Openreach network then the gaining provider will deal with everything.

If you move to a provider not using the Openreach network (such as Virgin or an ISP using an Altnet) then you may find that the gaining provider does inform Plusnet especially if they are porting in your phone number, which will itself cease your Plusnet service. In that case, if you phone Plusnet you need to ensure that they do not act on your call and put a cease on the line as that will complicate the gaining provider's processes. The gaining provider's notice should be adequate.

Certainly in the latter case Plusnet were informed (within 24 hours of me signing up to Zen) of my projected moving date to Zen (on the City Fibre network) and sent me a "sorry you are leaving" email with my projected leaving date correctly stated, together with their, albeit wrong, calculation of my ETCs (I am leaving within the last month of my contract). What is not clear in this scenario is whether if that projected date changes whether Plusnet would get an updated date and maintain your service until then (as would happen with a move within the Openreach family). Zen seemed to think that if the date changed, I would need to tell Plusnet as they might not get the update. Plusnet COT told me that I could call them right up to moving day if the takeover was delayed to ensure that Plusnet's service continued.

As Plusnets ETC calculation was wrong, I had to call Plusnet COT and they sorted that out without any equivocation by issuing a credit to my account. The Plusnet system had, for reasons best known to itself used my undiscounted monthly cost rather than the discounted cost in the calculation which, judging by the Plusnet COT member's reaction was not uncommon!. A bit odd as ETCs should really only be applicable if you leave within contract which by their very nature tend to involve discounted costs.

I do not think that the current procedures / systems are as developed as they could be to cover moves between Openreach and Altnets, or, at least they are not as transparent to customers as they could be.

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

corringham — Mon, 01 Jul 2024 16:25:50 GMT

@Mav, how do you get to the "Thinking of Leaving" page from the front page? I've just had a very quick look and I can't find it - so maybe others don't see that page either?

Edit: Ah, I have found it listed in the "View All Articles (A-Z)" of the "Help and Support" page which is accessible from the small print in the page footer. I really don't think many people will see that (unless there's another way to get to it?).

Re: what is the point of automatic compensation if plusnet can wriggle out of it?

Baldrick1 — Mon, 01 Jul 2024 17:30:49 GMT

@corringham wrote:

@Baldrick1 wrote:

I agree that it could be clearer but the next clause:

15.2. If someone else requests that we end our agreement (for example a provider you're transferring to) we'll accept that notice but will email you, asking you to confirm that this is what you want. If we don't hear from you within 10 working days we'll stop providing your service

But that clause doesn't say that you should ignore the previous clause if you are migrating to another ISP.

Nowhere in the T&Cs does it say that is you are migrating to another ISP you should not contact Plusnet. It isn't surprising things go wrong, as the migration process isn't explained.

There is nothing to stop customers from cancelling the contract. The problem here is that for some reason, the details of which we have no information, the cancellation was not reversed in time.

Surely the winning ISP has a responsibility to advise their new customer the best way to make this as painless as possible?