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autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

jelv
Seasoned Hero
Posts: 26,785
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Registered: ‎10-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

OK, maybe not finger, but as itsme says they usually have a method by which you can trigger immediate delivery.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
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jelv
Seasoned Hero
Posts: 26,785
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Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: SimonHobson
Just to add ...
When thinking about using a backup MX, note that the original sender may well look to see if a message has been delivered - I sometimes do this if I'm sending something important, and may even keep a copy of the server logs so I can prove it was sent and delivered (noting that some government agencies are prone to losing communications and then impose penalties for not informing them of something).
If you don't have any backup, then the logs will show that delivery was delayed. If you have a backup that accepts and then queues mail until you are back online (as is being discussed here), then the sender would see in their logs that you've received it. My POV is that this is like sending a letter recorded delivery - I know it's been delivered, if you choose to have the post room hold onto it for a week after that then that's not my concern !

My experience is that organisations that tend to deny receipt of emails often turn off the sending of delivery responses! Sad
Won't this be an option on the backup server as to whether it should respond to delivery requests? My understanding was that the response was that the email had been delivered to the correct mailbox so surely backup servers should NOT send delivery receipts as all they have done is queue the mail for delivery when the primary server comes back on the air.
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
jch
Dabbler
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Registered: ‎30-07-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: jelv
My experience is that organisations that tend to deny receipt of emails often turn off the sending of delivery responses! Sad
Won't this be an option on the backup server as to whether it should respond to delivery requests? My understanding was that the response was that the email had been delivered to the correct mailbox so surely backup servers should NOT send delivery receipts as all they have done is queue the mail for delivery when the primary server comes back on the air.

Mail servers are under no obligation to send a delivery notification, but if you get one, it is supposed to come from the system that finally delivered the message to someone's inbox, not any intermediate systems.  If you don't get a delivery (or non-delivery) notification you don't know what has happened to your message.  If you do get a delivery notification then all you know is that the system that generated it considered the message delivered, but that also may be because it passed it on to an MTA that doesn't support DSN (RFC 1865? It's been a while since I looked).  Or it's just generating DSNs for the hell of it Smiley
Even if you get a (positive) delivery notification from the system that actually delivered the message to the final recipient's inbox, you can't be sure that the recipient actually saw it.  If you asked for an MDN (aka read-receipt) and you get one then you can have some confidence that someone at least saw the message before it was deleted.  But not very confident.  What you really need is a reply from a human that indicates that they understood the message (before ignoring it).
However, it is usually the case that everything works.  You'll get a delivery notification from the system that finally sent the message (and you may get intermediate ones from insane forwarders like mine at work) and you'll get an MDN indicating that the recipient read the message.  Just don't put too much faith in either.  Or none.
jch
SimonHobson
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Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: jelv
My experience is that organisations that tend to deny receipt of emails often turn off the sending of delivery responses! Sad

This is nothing to do with read receipts, it's to do with what your SMTP server logs (another reason I like running my own server).
There's a specific handshake of messages required in order to deliver a message, and if you get the final message confirming receipt and acceptance of the message then it's "been delivered" as far as the recipients mail system - equivalent to having proof that it went through their letterbox for a posted letter. I don't care what they do with it after that (get a spam filter to bin it, bin it manually, ignore it), that's their problem as I have proof that their systems got it.
Even if they use a third party (mail handler, spam filter, whatever), I've got proof that the message was delivered to their nominated inbound mail handler - and it's still their problem if they didn't get it after that.
With Postfix, you get log entries of the form (bits in italic are redacted) :
Oct 19 12:40:57 host postfix/smtp[4807]: ID: to=<recipient>, relay=destination server, delay=0.63, delays=0.35/0.01/0.01/0.26, dsn=2.6.0, status=sent (250 2.6.0 Ok, id=04749-01, from MTA(host😞 250 2.0.0 Ok: queued as ID)
Basically it gives me date & time, the host it was delivered to, and crucially, normally an ID that it was queued under. The last bit (250 ... queued as ID) is the actual text response from the destination (and varies in format between packages), everything before that is from my own server.
It is not possible to disable this as SMTP simply won't work if you try - if they don't respond with a "250 OK" message then the sending server will assume the transfer failed and keep retrying.
jelv
Seasoned Hero
Posts: 26,785
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Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

So if I've sent a test email from home to the office (via relay.plus.net) and I get no delivery notification is that the fault of the Plusnet server?
jelv (a.k.a Spoon Whittler)
   Why I have left Plusnet (warning: long post!)   
Broadband: Andrews & Arnold Home::1 (FTTC 80/20)
Line rental: Pulse 8 Home Line Rental (£14.40/month)
Mobile: iD mobile (£4/month)
SimonHobson
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Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

No, it's because the design of the system does not mandate a reliable means of requesting or getting such a notification. Once the email leaves machines under your control (or you can see logs for), then it's about as trackable as a letter dropped in a post box - ie not at all.
Whether you get a delivery notification depends on whether the final destination server bothers to comply with your request.
dusty_bin
Grafter
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Registered: ‎12-06-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Well - I've set one of my hosted domains to POP3 rather than SMTP delivery.  I eventually managed to get something delivered - the main problem being that the spam system on my server seemed to think that stuff coming though Plusnet was most likely spam Wink  - probably because autoturn and mxlast were favorites for spammers.
Having got something delivered, I've now added MX 5 mymailserver.org.uk. to the existing MX 10 mx.core.plus.net. and got email through directly.
So, it's looking promising, while we wait for Plusnet to introduce their new ODMR service Cheesy
Doesn't help anyone with just hostname.plus.com though Cry
mgillespie
Grafter
Posts: 222
Registered: ‎08-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: jelv
Quote from: ClashcityRocker
WOW, this is news to me, I came here wondering why my midnight finger (oooeerr) script was failing....

You should have received emails about this - might be worth checking you closed tickets to see if there are copies. The first should be dated 7th July.

Yeh, I have an ongoing problem with postfix and it rejecting all my postmaster emails... 
http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,96402.msg812868.html#msg812868
SimonHobson
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Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: jelv
You should have received emails ... first should be dated 7th July.

Quote from: ClashcityRocker
I have an ongoing problem with postfix ...

You had an answer to your question in early June, more than three weeks before 7th July.
There's no feedback in that thread to say whether or not you tried the suggested fix, and whether or not it worked.
mgillespie
Grafter
Posts: 222
Registered: ‎08-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

...... because I don't get postmaster replies.  I only just noticed the reply.....
mgillespie
Grafter
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Registered: ‎08-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Grrrr my Plusnet broadband has been down for 3 days now.  So I am obviously losing emails due to this change.  (in addition with dealing with the incompetence of the 1st line support, who wasted 2 days before actually escalating it externally).
I originally used Plusnet because whilst they weren't the cheapest, they had extras like SMTP delivery, MX backups, webspace with shell access etc etc.
All these have since been whittled away, and i'm starting to feel like they are just like the all the other UK ISP's now. Sad Sad Sad Sad Sad
jch
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Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

It's not obvious that you're losing emails.   Four or five days is the recommended timeout so you should be good for a little while longer.
Presumably support can turn off SMTP and have mail delivered to the normal POP/IMAP mailbox until you're back on air.  Have you asked?
mgillespie
Grafter
Posts: 222
Registered: ‎08-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Broadband back online.  No answers as to what they did at the exchange to sort out out (or more likely who was unplugging my connection to plug their ipad in...)...  I'm guessing ill never know, but it's quite a regular occurrence on our small local exchange, so they need to give someoene a boot up their arse.
Did we ever get an answer as to how long Plusnet mail servers will attempt delivery before rejecting the messages?  I really have no way of knowing if I have lost email or not anymore since the autoturn was switched off 😞
dusty_bin
Grafter
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Registered: ‎12-06-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Quote from: ClashcityRocker
Did we ever get an answer as to how long Plusnet mail servers will attempt delivery before rejecting the messages?  I really have no way of knowing if I have lost email or not anymore since the autoturn was switched off 😞

http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,97124.msg840646.html#msg840646
email sent: 10 Oct 2011 02:00:01 +0100
rejected: 13 Oct 2011 02:56:07 +0100
I think this is what you were looking for, but I am not sure.
mgillespie
Grafter
Posts: 222
Registered: ‎08-04-2007

Re: autoturn decommision and *.plus.com domains

Internet back down again, another 3 day outage with no explaination from Plusnet as to what BT Wholesale are upto at my exchange, and why my broadband has been down more than it's been up this month 😞
I have some very important emails that I really don't want to get rejected, so in pure desperation I have lashed up my router's WAN2  to fallback to using my phones 3G connection via USB tethering.
I now have my mail server talking to the internet again, but on a non Plusnet IP address (31.107.xx.xx number).  I have gone into the mail control panel on the Plusnet website and set this IP address.
Should this work?  (I did it about an hour ago and have yet to see any email).