Hmmm what a pickle!

itsme · ‎07-04-2007

@Bob
I better briefly explain that I'm winding down to retirement and currently l do 3 nights doing LLU work for Openreach so I know what jumpering is involved and we prefer doing MPF to SMPF because it's easier and quicker.
So just to confirm
MPF = cessation charge
SMPF = no cessation charge
If the above is correct then going to SMPF first followed a month later to MDF would your new broadband provider pass on a cessation charge?
Jumpering in the exchange for SMPF is BT Equipment to LLU Equipment in and LLU Equipment to Bar pair For MPF it's LLU Equipment to TAMS in and TAMS out to Bar pair.

bobpullen · ‎04-04-2007

Quote from: itsme
MPF = cessation charge

Yes, if moving from us to an MPF provider a cessation fee should be levied. MAC's cannot be used in this situation.

Quote
SMPF = no cessation charge

Yes, when moving from us to an SMPF provider no cessation fee is levied. A MAC can be used too, presumably because the PSTN jumpering remains largely intact and the DSL side just needs plugging into the HDF of the provider in question?

Quote from: itsme
If the above is correct then going to SMPF first followed a month later to MDF would your new broadband provider pass on a cessation charge?

No idea if the provider would be charged this at a Wholesale level (although I'd certainly like to think they would!). I've never known an MPF provider to explicitly charge a cessation fee for a new line install, I suppose it would make more commercial sense to factor this into any initial set-up fees/minimal contractual terms.

Quote from: itsme
Jumpering in the exchange for SMPF is BT Equipment to LLU Equipment in and LLU Equipment to Bar pair For MPF it's LLU Equipment to TAMS in and TAMS out to Bar pair.

Thanks for that, there's some pretty good info on Kitz' site here.
Most of my knowledge comes from a visit to Tiscali UK's offices several years back just before we started reselling their LLU offering (which we don't do any more BTW).

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

itsme · ‎07-04-2007

I can't think of any logical reason for a cessation charge for MPF and none for SMPF. The cessation charge I thought was for broadband and in both cases this has been moved from BT to the LLU company. The only difference is with MPF the telephony is moved with the broadband.
As for the jumpering in the exchange both require 2 jumpers to be removed with 2 jumpers being installed and both are allocted the same amount of time to do. But as I stated in the previous post MPF is normally easier and faster to do. There use to be schematics on the web showing the jumpering but can't find them now so will describe instead. I will use MSAN to mean DSLAM as well and POTS for the telephony side.
So existing BT jumpering is
POTS to MSAN and MSAN to Bar pair.
SMPF
POTS to MSAN (LLU) and MSAN (LLU) to Bar pair
MPF
(POTS and MSAN combined) to TAM and TAM to Bar pair
So all require 2 jumpers

bobpullen · ‎04-04-2007

Quote from: itsme
So all require 2 jumpers.

Which is interesting, and I can see the point you make about why one would elicit a charge whilst the other doesn't. Sparing it more thought, I think it all depends on whether or not any jumpering needs to be reclaimed.
The best official documentation I've been able to find given a quick search is this (page 13 in particular).
I've a sneaking suspicion that an outbound MPF transfer may or may not lead to a cessation fee based on the following:
* Outbound MPF transfer (voice only) where the gaining provider places the DSL order after the voice service is activated - Cessation fee.
* Outbound MPF transfer with the DSL transferred at the same time as the voice - No cessation fee.
As mentioned, that's an assumption at present so I've asked for clarification from a number of people within BT...

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

itsme · ‎07-04-2007

Both SMPF and MPF require 2 jumpers to be recovered and 2 new jumpers to be ran.

bobpullen · ‎04-04-2007

Yes, but presumably not at the same time depending on how the gaining provider handles the MPF transfer? There must be some efficiencies in the MAC process used by an SMPF transfer as well else it would be downright pointless?
Regardless, I've asked our BT product managers for a definitive answer regarding the pricing so we'll see what they come back with...

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

itsme · ‎07-04-2007

MPF are done in one hit. The new LLU equipment is programmed with the same telephone number, this is done several hours /days in advanced, the new jumpers are than run in and terminated out to customer. An automated test is then initiated which on a successful outcome will finish the change over for incoming call routing and cease the BT connection. This is a completely automated process. The old jumpers are removed at the same time.

bobpullen · ‎04-04-2007

Quote from: Bob
Regardless, I've asked our BT product managers for a definitive answer regarding the pricing so we'll see what they come back with...

Right, I've now had a definitive answer and it looks like an MPF transfer *does not* incur a cessation fee.
I've had verbal confirmation that this is the case and have also been pointed towards page four of the document here.
Notably:
[quote author="BT Wholesale"]SUB PART 2.0 : BROADBAND ASYMMETRIC ANCILLARY CHARGES
END USER CEASE CHARGES
General Description
Cease charges will apply when a BT Wholesale ADSL End User service is terminated or
replaced by a non-BT Wholesale ADSL End User service (cease and re-provide).
A cease charge will be raised under the following circumstances:
· The Service Provider raises a cease order.
· The Service Provider asks BT Wholesale to raise a cease order on their behalf.
· Openreach issue an unsolicited cease because the PSTN service has been
terminated.
A cease charge will not be raised in the following circumstances:
· The End User line has been migrated to another ADSL service provider using the
published migration process.
· The End User line has been migrated to an LLU operator (either SMPF or MPF)
using the published migration process.
· When End User service is migrated to another BT Wholesale ADSL service and /
or to another Communications Provider (CP) where a MAC code is used.
End User Cease Charge: £24.74 (exc VAT)
Operative Date: 01-04-2010
Hopefully that helps clear things up.

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

mrmarkus1981 · ‎26-02-2008

Erm just to get back on topic

They did phone and offer me line rental and broadband for £18 p/m. Which is £12 cheaper than Plusnet. However the line speed was 'estimated' at 8MB but there was a 'chance' it could be higher.
The 2 words in red prompted me to tell them to ahem, 'ram it'

itsme · ‎07-04-2007

Quote from: mrmarkus1981
I understand i dont need a MAC to switch (although the cessation charge will no doubt require to be paid)

It has remained on topic as your last statement in the OP wanted clarification.

It now has and no matter if you are moving to LLU (MPF or SMPF) or to other ISP selling BT Wholesale broadband you need to ask for a MAC and there will be no cessation charge.

bobpullen · ‎04-04-2007

If you move to an MPF provider then I doubt a MAC is necessary, you *wont* be charged a cessation fee for the priviledge though.

Bob Pullen
Plusnet Product Team
If I've been helpful then please give thanks ⤵

mrmarkus1981 · ‎26-02-2008

They phoned again tonight, last night they offered a 'boost' which would push my line over 8MB, tonight they offered a 'turbo boost', whatever next

Strat · ‎14-04-2007

Warp Drive

Windows 10 Firefox 109.0 (64-bit)
To argue with someone who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead - Thomas Paine

Hmmm what a pickle!

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